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GTN 650 install cost


BaldEagle

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1 hour ago, Bryan said:

If you have a GTN with a FS510, two mobile devices can connect to the FlightStream.  If you, also, have a GTX345 transponder, two more/different deviecs can connect to it for GPS, ADSB, and AHRS data.  That is 4 devices connected to sources for ADSB, GPS data, and AHRS.

I understand your point that there are multiple BlueTooth radios in the various gizmos.  But in all the GTN/GTX/FS installations I've seen (which admittedly is a small set), Bluetooth connections are managed exclusively through the Connext hub of the GTN, and there is only one discoverable device for PEDs to pair with.  Therefore, only two connections total for the entire system.  If you look in the GTX 345 Pilot Guide, for example, it gives explicitly different pairing instructions for a GTN/GTX combo vs. a GTX 345 standalone device.

It would be nice if there were multiple, independent discoverable Bluetooth devices as you imply: one for the GTX 345, a different one for the FlightStream device(s), and so on.  But as far as I know, it Just Doesn't Work That Way (TM).  If you've laid eyes and hands on an installation that actually does work that way, I'd love to hear about it.

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33 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I understand your point that there are multiple BlueTooth radios in the various gizmos.  But in all the GTN/GTX/FS installations I've seen (which admittedly is a small set), Bluetooth connections are managed exclusively through the Connext hub of the GTN, and there is only one discoverable device for PEDs to pair with.  Therefore, only two connections total for the entire system.  If you look in the GTX 345 Pilot Guide, for example, it gives explicitly different pairing instructions for a GTN/GTX combo vs. a GTX 345 standalone device.

It would be nice if there were multiple, independent discoverable Bluetooth devices as you imply: one for the GTX 345, a different one for the FlightStream device(s), and so on.  But as far as I know, it Just Doesn't Work That Way (TM).  If you've laid eyes and hands on an installation that actually does work that way, I'd love to hear about it.

I have this setup: GTN750, FS510, GTX345, GMA 35c.  The ones underlined each have their own bluetooth radio that you can connect to independently; I can confirm 100%.  When you go into the "Connect" menu of the GTN, you are presented with three icons to "enable" bluetooth for each. If all bluetooth radios are enabled for pairing, the iPad (or mobile device) will show you see three distinct Bluetooth radios to connect to.  In fact, I had to re-name each of the bluetooth connections within the menu to tell them apart on my iPad.

I can confirm, that:  It Works On My Box

Also, it works on another plane in my club that has a GTN650, FS510, and GTX345.

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Thanks Bryan, that's excellent news.  We currently have no FlightStream devices in our own airplane, my experience is with other airplanes, that I'm now thinking don't have all the radios enabled in the Connext menu.  This certainly increases my interest adding an FS210/510 to our setup, despite already having the GTX345.

Just to be clear... if you connect a PED to the 510 via BlueTooth, that PED can show ADS-B weather and traffic?  The 510 obviously isn't an ADS-B receiver itself.  But I'm guessing that as long as ADS-B data is available in the Connext Hub (as put there by the GTX 345), the 510 can access and transmit it.  If so, that would effectively allow 4 PEDs to receive traffic and weather: two via the GTX-345 radio, and two via the FS 510 radio, right?

But now for the wildcard... the FS 510 runs $1500.  For half that cost I could buy an Aera 660, which I understand can be hardwired to the GTN and receive data streams via the hardware.  I had previously thought that was the only way to get an additional connection to weather and traffic data.  That option isn't wireless, though.

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15 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

FS210 currently only supports 2 BT connections, anyone know how many 510 and IFD support?


Tom

I've had 4 BT devices connected to my FS210 at the same time.  There is a setting for compatibility mode which only allows 2 but without it set, my Aera 660, iPad Mini, and 2 iPhones all connected.

Edited by 201Mooniac
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Yes, all the ADSB data and AHRS from the GTX345 comes to the GTN. If you connect only to the FS510, everything is available over Bluetooth: adsb traffic, weather, GPS, AHRS, and flight plan transfer from the FS510. In fact, I never connect my iPad directly to the 345 unless the FS510 fails. That did happen early on with a firmware bug that has since been fixed.

If you want to give a passenger capability to “follow along”, just give them access to the GTX 345.

I have a Garmin Watch (D2) and connect it only to the 345 as all I care about is GPS location.

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35 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

But now for the wildcard... the FS 510 runs $1500.  For half that cost I could buy an Aera 660, which I understand can be hardwired to the GTN and receive data streams via the hardware.  I had previously thought that was the only way to get an additional connection to weather and traffic data.  That option isn't wireless, though.

One of the best features of the FS510, not to be overlooked, is the Database Concierge. My iPad automatically downloads the updates at home and when I get to the plane it automatically connects and updates the panel databases.

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57 minutes ago, Bryan said:

One of the best features of the FS510, not to be overlooked, is the Database Concierge. My iPad automatically downloads the updates at home and when I get to the plane it automatically connects and updates the panel databases.

Definitely a nice feature.  But again for those following along, this only works if you run Garmin Pilot.  If you prefer some other EFB app, you'll either need to keep downloading databases manually onto the card, or maintain a Garmin Pilot subscription in addition to your preferred EFB.

Thanks for the detailed info on BlueTooth connections, Bryan, really appreciate the helpful contributions.

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2 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

I understand your point that there are multiple BlueTooth radios in the various gizmos.  But in all the GTN/GTX/FS installations I've seen (which admittedly is a small set), Bluetooth connections are managed exclusively through the Connext hub of the GTN, and there is only one discoverable device for PEDs to pair with.  Therefore, only two connections total for the entire system.  If you look in the GTX 345 Pilot Guide, for example, it gives explicitly different pairing instructions for a GTN/GTX combo vs. a GTX 345 standalone device.

It would be nice if there were multiple, independent discoverable Bluetooth devices as you imply: one for the GTX 345, a different one for the FlightStream device(s), and so on.  But as far as I know, it Just Doesn't Work That Way (TM).  If you've laid eyes and hands on an installation that actually does work that way, I'd love to hear about it.

There are two separate bluetooth connections with your FS210 and GTX345 exactly as @Bryan said above. I humbly suggest you learn how to connect to your GTN345, in addition to the FS510, so that you will have access to the backup ADHRs in an emergency since you're not yet able to do so. The "how to" is in your Garmin documentation. My iPad with GP is always connected to both since if I did lose my GTN and possibly more, that would not be the time to figure out how to get connected to the 345. Once you set it up, it'll always reconnect with always reconnect on.  

Edited by kortopates
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2 hours ago, kortopates said:

I humbly suggest you learn how to connect to your GTN345, in addition to the FS510.

No Flightstream devices of any kind in our airplane at this time, only the GTX 345.  Connecting is straightforward, as there's only one wireless device installed.

My experience with GTX345+FlightStream combos is one-off rides in other people's/club's airplanes.  Given that those setups only broadcast one device to pair with, it appears those airplanes were either mis-configured, or perhaps deliberately configured for "simplicity" vs. "maximum connectivity".  No idea if the owners understood the limitations they were living with.

... which raises an interesting question for avionics shops.  Given that many customers have only a tenuous understanding of the technology involved, I wouldn't be surprised if the shops generally configure installations such that only one BlueTooth or WiFi device is broadcasting.  Otherwise, a healthy percentage of their customers are going to constantly be connecting to the wrong device, and coming back to the shop complaining something is wrong with the installation.  And you can imagine the headaches for a rental operation.  With the increasing number of portable and panel-mounted gizmos with wireless connectivity, this problem is only going to get worse.

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21 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

Before you make your decision be sure to see them both in person and play with them. You may find that you like one a lot more over the other. I know Garmin demo dealers have units setup for this purpose. Garmin also has simulator on website you can download. It’s easy to make the wrong decision thinking about an easier installation. There are tradeofffs with that you may not like.

Exceptionally-said, and very true.

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3 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

My experience with GTX345+FlightStream combos is one-off rides in other people's/club's airplanes.  Given that those setups only broadcast one device to pair with, it appears those airplanes were either mis-configured, or perhaps deliberately configured for "simplicity" vs. "maximum connectivity".  No idea if the owners understood the limitations they were living with.

I don't think they were mis-configured, but possibly.  I am sure the dealer has the capability to shut off the 345 BlueTooth on a config page. 

I *think* the Bluetooth radios could have just not in pairing mode for you to "see" them to connect the time(s) you were in the club's planes.  Once paired, they will automatically re-connect.  Or maybe they the one-off rides pilots had their 2nd device already paired to the other device and in their pocket - like I do, for a backup.

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2 hours ago, kortopates said:

My iPad with GP is always connected to both since if I did lose my GTN and possibly more, that would not be the time to figure out how to get connected to the 345.

Have you actually tested how this failover works, maybe by ejecting the FS510 from the GTN?  I understand that in principle the iPad hardware and EFB software could drop the AHRS data stream from the 510 and seamlessly pick it up from the 345.  But I wouldn't be surprised if it's not that simple in practice.  It's common for connectivity stacks to try to re-establish a connection with a lost device for a while (or forever), before switching to some other source.

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1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

Have you actually tested how this failover works, maybe by ejecting the FS510 from the GTN?  I understand that in principle the iPad hardware and EFB software could drop the AHRS data stream from the 510 and seamlessly pick it up from the 345.  But I wouldn't be surprised if it's not that simple in practice.  It's common for connectivity stacks to try to re-establish a connection with a lost device for a while (or forever), before switching to some other source.

Yes, with both connected (FS510 and GTX345) when one drops, the iPad does not lose GPS, AHRS, or ADSB when the FS drops off.

Early on, the FS had problems disconnecting because of a firmware bug, they have since fixed. I only knew this because my flight plan quit syncing (the only exclusive function) that the FS does.

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@Vance Harral Vance, good to bring up testing it as well. I agree as a retired s/w professional nothing works till tested :) iPad GP makes this pretty easy to so via under the connext menu's which shows which devices are connected and status info on each connected device. 

One thing that may help you get more than 2 bluetooth connections is the "Bluetooth compatibility option". You have to wait till after you connect in GP and then go to the device page under connext, you'll then see it. I have not experimented to see how many connections it will support and I don't know if all the different devices have this option since you have to be connected to the device before you can even see it. But it says with a Bluetooth compatibility turned on, it will only connect to a max of 2 devices, suggesting with it off, it should connect to some number greater than 2. For me its been working fine without that turned on. But I have never had a need to connect more than the 2 pilot's ipad's in the front seat. But I'd try that first since its easy to do but does require a device re-boot after changing it. 

In fact, I just saw @201Mooniac that confirms above with the compatibility mode option turned off he gets 4 devices connected - so that should definitely resolve your concern for wanting to connect 3 devices. Boy a cockpit full of connected iPads!

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Very helpful perspective from everyone -- thanks very much.  I'm replacing the windshield in a few weeks, and a new interior is also on the upgrade list, and replacing the rest of the glass, so I have some budget constraints.  IFD440 (and replacing the GTX335 for a 345 with the savings) would do the job for the least amount of $$$ I guess.  The money-is-no-option alternatives don't make financial sense unless I'm going to keep the plane forever, which was my original plan but when we get to retirement our flying needs will likely change (longer trips), so that's adding to the decision paralysis.  I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir here...

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