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GTN 650 install cost


BaldEagle

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Hi all,

I'm looking into replacement options for my non-WAAS GNS 430.  It currently feeds a KFC200 and an Aspen PFD.  I'm persuaded that a WAAS GPS will help me extract more utility from my J, while also improving safety.  I'm looking to get an idea of how much labor is involved in going this route.  Also, will I have to install a WAAS antenna or can I use the WAAS antenna from my GTX 335?  Presumably Flightstream 510 would be a must-have too (I use Foreflight)?  Local avionics shops are pretty backed up right now, presumably due to the 202 mandate, so I'm planning a year out right now.  The GTN 650 does GPSS right out of the box, yes?  Anything else obvious that I need?

Bonus question: IFD 440 alternative route: I know this is a slide-in replacement, but would it save significant $$ on installation costs?  Would I just have to have the shop install the WAAS antenna?

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3 minutes ago, BaldEagle said:

Hi all,

I'm looking into replacement options for my non-WAAS GNS 430.  It currently feeds a KFC200 and an Aspen PFD.  I'm persuaded that a WAAS GPS will help me extract more utility from my J, while also improving safety.  I'm looking to get an idea of how much labor is involved in going this route.  Also, will I have to install a WAAS antenna or can I use the WAAS antenna from my GTX 335?  Presumably Flightstream 510 would be a must-have too (I use Foreflight)?  Local avionics shops are pretty backed up right now, presumably due to the 202 mandate, so I'm planning a year out right now.  The GTN 650 does GPSS right out of the box, yes?  Anything else obvious that I need?

Bonus question: IFD 440 alternative route: I know this is a slide-in replacement, but would it save significant $$ on installation costs?  Would I just have to have the shop install the WAAS antenna?

Walk over to Neal Aviation with a picture of your panel and ask Garett for ball park estimate. The fact is, installation cost vary widely based on the equipment that needs to be interfaced with and what other expectations you may have, local shop rates etc. What other folks have paid isn't very applicable unless it was based on exactly the same interfaces and starting point.

The Avidyne would save you all install cost's except for the antenna and optional wiring to take advantage of things the Avidyne can do such as voice alerts. Sliding in a new Avidyne won't give you voice alerts without wiring it to your audio. You may want to have your WAAS GPS wired into your 335 now too etc.

GPSS steering is for your autopilot, not the GPS. The KFC200, being an analog AP needs it, but it would come from an Aspen adapter,  ($) to integrate with your Aspen and your GPS.

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14 minutes ago, BaldEagle said:

Presumably Flightstream 510 would be a must-have too (I use Foreflight)?

The database concierge feature in the Flightstream 510 only works with Garmin Pilot at this time, no love for Foreflight.  If you're not willing to switch, maintain a subscription to both apps, or bet that Garmin and Foreflight will work something out in the future, consider saving $500 and installing a Flightstream 210 instead.

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30 minutes ago, BaldEagle said:

Hi all,

I'm looking into replacement options for my non-WAAS GNS 430.  It currently feeds a KFC200 and an Aspen PFD.  I'm persuaded that a WAAS GPS will help me extract more utility from my J, while also improving safety.  I'm looking to get an idea of how much labor is involved in going this route.  Also, will I have to install a WAAS antenna or can I use the WAAS antenna from my GTX 335?  Presumably Flightstream 510 would be a must-have too (I use Foreflight)?  Local avionics shops are pretty backed up right now, presumably due to the 202 mandate, so I'm planning a year out right now.  The GTN 650 does GPSS right out of the box, yes?  Anything else obvious that I need?

Bonus question: IFD 440 alternative route: I know this is a slide-in replacement, but would it save significant $$ on installation costs?  Would I just have to have the shop install the WAAS antenna?

In this case I'd do the 440. the fact that you can install it in 10 minutes will save you about 3k in labor cost. Personally I dislike the small GPS units including the 650, the 430, and the 440. but out of all of these, Avidyne came up with a brilliant idea. IFD100 ipad app that makes the 440 practically a remote box and the Ipad can control it. When a GPS NAV COM is going in my panel, its going to be a gtn750. but when it comes to the smaller screens, I'd recommend IFR440 all the way.

Sell you GNS430 for like 4.5amu and buy the IFD440 for 10.5amu from avionics source in Seattle. no sales tax, no install cost and minimal shipping. at the end of the day you spent 6 grand instead of 7 to 8 for a box that will be considerably better. and the best part. no waiting. if you want you can do this now and have the box legally installed in the plane next week.

If your antenna isn't WAAS, my guess is it would be about 1-3 hours to replace the antenna to a WAAS one.

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5 hours ago, BaldEagle said:

I'm looking into replacement options for my non-WAAS GNS 430. 

Before you make your decision be sure to see them both in person and play with them. You may find that you like one a lot more over the other. I know Garmin demo dealers have units setup for this purpose. Garmin also has simulator on website you can download. It’s easy to make the wrong decision thinking about an easier installation. There are tradeofffs with that you may not like.

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7 hours ago, m20kmooney said:

Before you make your decision be sure to see them both in person and play with them. You may find that you like one a lot more over the other. I know Garmin demo dealers have units setup for this purpose. Garmin also has simulator on website you can download. It’s easy to make the wrong decision thinking about an easier installation. There are tradeofffs with that you may not like.

Great point! If you have an iPad you can go to the App Store and search for Avidyne. There’s an IFD trainer there which you can choose in the settings an IFD440, 540 and 550. And of course the IFD100 if you decide to buy the IFD440, both apps are free.

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Garmin recently came out with a GTN trainer app also.

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With the IFD440 since you are saving so much on install, it makes it sort of a no-brainer. You’re getting WiFi, Bluetooth, synthetic vision, large IFD iPad app all included for at least $3000 less than the GTN650 after all the dust settles. Or $4500 less if you were thinking about adding the FS510 on the Garmin for Bluetooth.

 

02291822-3CD5-479E-A8D7-1CF9C6325032.png

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5 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

The database concierge feature in the Flightstream 510 only works with Garmin Pilot at this time, no love for Foreflight.  If you're not willing to switch, maintain a subscription to both apps, or bet that Garmin and Foreflight will work something out in the future, consider saving $500 and installing a Flightstream 210 instead.

The FS210 will not save you money overall, I don’t think. My guess is that the cost to install the FS210 over the FS510 would eat the acquisition cost savings right up. The FS510 just slides into a card slot vs mounting and wiring the FS210, however the FS210 does provide you with a backup AHRS.

I also doubt FF will ever get database Concierge. GP connects with your flyGarmin account for those databases which are different from the FF databases - different format.

The purchase of a FS510 will give you 6-months (or maybe 12) of GP, but yes, if you want to continue to use FF and db concierge then you will have to maintain two subscriptions.

As others have stated, IFD is going to be cheaper. 

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7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

With the IFD440 since you are saving so much on install, in makes it sort of a no-brainer.

Again, there are, imo, real trade-offs. I went through this decision process as well and ended up with a GTN 750. It was a no brainer! Installation wasn’t the deciding factor. Pales in comparison to other considerations. @BaldEagle pm me if you wish and I'll be happy to share my thoughts.

Edited by m20kmooney
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10 minutes ago, m20kmooney said:

Again, there are, imo, real trade-offs. Installation is the least of concerns. I went through this decision process as well and ended up with a GTN 750. It was a no brainer! @BaldEagle pm me if you wish with questions you may have and I'll be happy to share my thoughts.

GTN750, loaded (install kit, fs510), retail- $~$16000+ ~$2500 for install... plus garmin/FF subscriptions to take advantage of the flight stream ($200/yr).  Database/chart updates are more expensive than the IFD for this unit as well.

IFD440, retail- ~$10.5+ $350 install.  No subscriptions required for ifd100 app, and Bluetooth/WiFi works with all the major efb’s (except probably Garmins app ;) )

It’s a no brainer alright if any sort of budget is in the picture.  

Capability wise- both units allow for you to file for the exact same waas navigation and approaches.

The GTN750 has a bigger screen and can display approach plates.  If these two things are important to you then your options are the 750 or the IFD540/550.  The 550 has its own internal AHRS, which the 750 does not have.  The 550/540 use the same connectors on the backplate as a 430/530, but you’d need a new tray and backplate- cost would likely be an additional 800-1000 for install,  base unit is roughly the same as a 750.  Overall install on a 540/550 would probably come out 1-2K cheaper than a 750 install. Subscription prices would then be comparable, as now you’d be paying for a chart subscription as well for your gps.

subjectively- take a look at the interfaces and ask yourself which you find most comfortable- that may sway you one way or the other too.

finally- if you’re trying to eliminate portables from your cockpit (for some reason)- that would also influence your decision (primarily between a small screen and a large screen, not really a brand IMO).

 

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One huge advantage for the GTNs is visual approaches. It basically gives you advisory glide slope (think VASI) to most airports and if you have a G500 it will also give you VNav guidance on DPs, Enroute, STARs, and Approaches. The VNav features will also allow newer digital autopilots to couple VNav altitudes to your autopilot. That is a big advantage over the IFDs (today) if important.

I still say that if form factor and budget are an issue, go with the IFD 440 over the GTN 650, but if you can swing it, the GTN 750 is worth its weight in gold.

For me the GTN 750 will be required equipment any all future (IFR) plane purchases.

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As you can see this is a Ford/Chevy discussion. There will never be a resolution. The only agreement you'll find is that the Avidyne will be a cheaper install. 

@Bryan and I fly almost the same model Mooney, fly the same way, use the same shop, spend excessively on our airplanes, and agree on just about every single thing... except he likes the GTN 750, whereas if I won one as a door prize, I'd sell it and install the Avidyne.

So close your eyes, and throw the dart. You'll probably love it and be a huge fan after it's installed, regardless of which it is.

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$2500 to install a GTN750? Whatever happened to the old estimate that “50-100% of the price of the avionics will be the labour cost”?

I just checked Pacific Coast and they have a 750 for 14.8 AMU or 18.1 AMU installed so I guess I’m off. Yet Lafayette Avionics wants 21.0 AMU installed for the same thing. Interesting. 4 AMU is about the rock bottom installation cost I’ve ran across for either the 650 or 750 or even the 430. I need to find my invoice to see what I effectively paid (I supplied the GTN650).





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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9 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

FS210 currently only supports 2 BT connections, anyone know how many 510 and IFD support?

Best as I can tell, the 2 BlueTooth connection limit is an architectural limit of the Garmin "Connext" architecture, based on the BlueTooth hardware they use.  Doesn't matter if you have the FS210, FS510, GTX345, whatever - only two devices connected at once.  Even as a fan of Garmin, with Garmin equipment in my airplane, I consider this a real and frustrating limitation.  I frequently fly 2-pilot IFR training missions with a buddy.  Each of us has an iPad.  I'd like to also link up my phone and use it as a dedicated traffic display, but I can't do that with the 2-device limit.

Other vendors use WiFi links, with virtually unlimited connections, which I think is a superior solution.  I've heard it argued that you want to be sitting in your airplane on the ground with your iPad connected to the FBO's WiFi for last minute updates, and simultaneously connected to your panel devices via BlueTooth.  But I think that argument is a stretch.

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5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

As you can see this is a Ford/Chevy discussion.

My grandfather use to own a GM dealership :)  I liken this more to an Apple vs. Google argument (especially phones).  Apple only allows their stuff to connect really well to their own hardware, yet makes it hard for others to play nice.  Yet, Google (phones) give the user ultimate ownership of doing what they want to do and make it a point to play nice with everyone.  Both of which succeed at their primary function, very well.

3 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

Best as I can tell, the 2 BlueTooth connection limit is an architectural limit of the Garmin "Connext" architecture, based on the BlueTooth hardware they use.  Doesn't matter if you have the FS210, FS510, GTX345, whatever - only two devices connected at once.  Even as a fan of Garmin, with Garmin equipment in my airplane, I consider this a real and frustrating limitation.  I frequently fly 2-pilot IFR training missions with a buddy.  Each of us has an iPad.  I'd like to also link up my phone and use it as a dedicated traffic display, but I can't do that with the 2-device limit.

This is true, each Bluetooth "device" has a two concurrent connections; mulitiple can be saved for quick-connect in the future.  If you have a GTN with a FS510, two mobile devices can connect to the FlightStream.  If you, also, have a GTX345 transponder, two more/different deviecs can connect to it for GPS, ADSB, and AHRS data.  That is 4 devices connected to sources for ADSB, GPS data, and AHRS.  Yes, only the devices that connect to the Flight Stream can change/update flight plan info but other devices can get to other info by connecting thru another device.  When I get in the plane, my phone connects to the Audio Panel as well as my iPad (for voice, music, and aural alerts), my iPad connects to the FS510 as well another passenger can.

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