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I absolutely love my 1968 M20F! I really love everything about it, with the lone exception of my archaic engine instrumentation and the general lack of data it provides - like fuel flow and individual cylinder head temps, and almost useless fuel quantity estimates.  Just as soon as one of those old suckers fail (or maybe sooner), I plan on removing it all, redoing my panel, and updating to some sort of a primary cluster type of engine monitoring system.  I haven't decided on an EI CGR-30 Combo, JPI EDM-900, or something else, but I do prefer the round forms and think that at least aesthetically, they would look better in my panel. Because, I have zero desire to change out any of my round flight instruments on the left side of my panel - I really prefer the vintage look. (I fly glass at work, and I really don't need any more reminders of work)

So...my question to all of our great mooniacs, experts and commentators out there is: 

Where should I put a new primary engine monitor(s), and how would you rearrange everything else that is left...

Thanks in advance for all of your great ideas!

Old Panel.jpg

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To simplify things and keep cost down, it looks like you have a perfect spot for the JPI EDM 900 in horizontal mode. Put blanks where the MP & RPM were.

1313185929_M20Fpanelupgrade.png.a9d15365852f13f4e52ecd76664aa65b.png

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I sure do like my EDM-900... But there's nothing wrong with the CGR Combo either. The easy thing would be to put the CGR's in place of your MP and RPM gauges are. You could then remove the factory cluster and just cover it with a blank.

If I was going to overhaul the panel... I'd recut the left side of the panel to square up all the round gauges and put the CGR Combo between the Altimeter/CDI and the Radio/GPS stack.

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Since we're doing panel porn, I gotta show a shot of the recently redone panel of our bird.  Last year we re-cut new panels for left- and right-hand sides of our 1967C.   The EDM900 in portrait mode is a huge space saver, allowing you to get rid of all kinds of old analog stuff.  The only thing behind the ipad is a few circuit breakers and a panel light dimmer knob.

panel_4Feb2019.jpg

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I am not certain about  your particular  year  of Mooney or the F model  but on the  right side panel  on my '67C   I had physical  interference issues. I wanted to  put  the  CGR-30C in the top hole on the right side panel. The defrost duct prevent me from putting it in top hole. I had put my Insight G3 Engine monitor  in the top right hole with a  3.125" to a 2.25" reducer plate to get it to fit. So for me any instrument with at a 3" depth ( could be less than  3" of depth)  would not be able to fit in the  top 3.125" hole on the right panel.  I would suspect you are going to have problems. Unless one was to re-fabricate  the duct or  re-fabricate right panel  or ???

Hope that helps,

James '67C

 

 

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image.png.4bd445a9e47353147ce80fbff07945f2.pngAs always the correct answer is to do something like what the poster did :lol:.  Specifically redo the left side of your panel pushing the 6 pack a tad to the left.  Move the VSI to it's typical position.   Push the nav head to the right, and mount the JPI EDM900 vertically above it.   Or alternately mount the nav head high (if you actually use it in addition to the HSI) and the JPI low.  Note you may run into clearance issues between the STEC 30 and the steel cage on the left (I did), in which case put it where mine is and keep the VSI in the six pack on the left.   Get rid of the lousy Garwin 6 engine gauge cluster.  Maybe consider keeping the RPM and MP gauges as backups for when the EDM900 acts up (long story).  

 

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13 hours ago, jamesm said:

I am not certain about  your particular  year  of Mooney or the F model  but on the  right side panel  on my '67C   I had physical  interference issues. I wanted to  put  the  CGR-30C in the top hole on the right side panel. The defrost duct prevent me from putting it in top hole. I had put my Insight G3 Engine monitor  in the top right hole with a  3.125" to a 2.25" reducer plate to get it to fit. So for me any instrument with at a 3" depth ( could be less than  3" of depth)  would not be able to fit in the  top 3.125" hole on the right panel.  I would suspect you are going to have problems. Unless one was to re-fabricate  the duct or  re-fabricate right panel  or ???

Hope that helps,

James '67C

 

 

Thanks so much for your advice James. I was so naive to think that I could just move things around where I'd like them without any regard to whether or not they will actually fit BEHIND the panel.  That just never occured to me.  i.e. I expected it would be easy to "fix" the six pack and move the VSI from it current (and original) location to its "rightful" place under the Altimeter, swapping places with the OBS. But the 8 inch long OBS probably wouldn't fit over there, against the steel cage. So if I do move the VSI, I will probably have to find a new place for the OBS. Lots to think about! 

 

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Red,

Take a look at as many Mooney panels you can take in...

Know that Mooney is what it is because they left no extra space anywhere... because extra space costs speed....

Did you know....

  • above the yoke is often a gap because the yoke’s shaft has some vertical motion beyond the visible in/out motion...
  • The steel cage is everywhere....
  • The vertical tube in front of the pilot turns into a Y....behind the panel...
  • Some instruments are incredibly long...
  • Some instruments have instruments attached to the back end...
  • Some boxes are short... they go at the top of the stack...

Watch some of the pro installations of equipment... they use an acrylic mock panel to visualize how well things fit before committing to the final aluminum version....

Doing a layout in 2D is normal for an ordinary pilot/user....

Being able to do visualize a layout in 3D is typical for an MSer.... they take the extra effort required to do it right the first time...

once you can visualize in 3D.... it makes it easier when discussing things with your panel builder...  

It is often a good route to copy a successful installation that matches your needs... much better than staring with a blank sheet. Unless you like the project for what it is.... a big expensive construction job...

Some people like building planes more than flying them...

 

So much to learn around here!

PP thoughts only, not a panel builder...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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@carusoam  raises some great points.  For instance, to avoid interference with the pilot's side yoke, we installed the DG in our plane with a 3-D printed wedge made of HDPE that allowed it to be mounted in a way to not interfere with the yoke motion.   The clearance is about 3/16" from the bottom of the DG and the upward-most travel limit of the yoke.  This was necessitated by the fact that we replaced the panel with one that is bent just like the original, with an approx. 8-degree bend, and we were forewarned by an older posting here on MS that this was an issue with using a bent panel.  This place contains a tremendous amount of information, representing a storehouse of other people's knowledge and experience...  if you can find it.  :huh:

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I'll add one comment on the JPI 900. Prior to the last repair in which a new display was installed, the JPI 900 display had a matte finish. The new JPI 900 display is very shiny and I think I would have a hard time seeing it from the right side. I will be exploring an anti-glare covering for it.

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On 2/10/2019 at 5:21 AM, redcatcher27 said:

I absolutely love my 1968 M20F! I really love everything about it, with the lone exception of my archaic engine instrumentation and the general lack of data it provides - like fuel flow and individual cylinder head temps, and almost useless fuel quantity estimates.  Just as soon as one of those old suckers fail (or maybe sooner), I plan on removing it all, redoing my panel, and updating to some sort of a primary cluster type of engine monitoring system.  I haven't decided on an EI CGR-30 Combo, JPI EDM-900, or something else, but I do prefer the round forms and think that at least aesthetically, they would look better in my panel. Because, I have zero desire to change out any of my round flight instruments on the left side of my panel - I really prefer the vintage look. (I fly glass at work, and I really don't need any more reminders of work)

So...my question to all of our great mooniacs, experts and commentators out there is: 

Where should I put a new primary engine monitor(s), and how would you rearrange everything else that is left...

Thanks in advance for all of your great ideas!

Old Panel.jpg

I have a similar center stack except I have a 430.  This allows me to put the KX155 in the bottom center.  I really like having the 2nd comm closer.  My transponder is actually to the right of center.

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On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 7:13 PM, DXB said:

image.png.4bd445a9e47353147ce80fbff07945f2.pngAs always the correct answer is to do something like what the poster did :lol:.  Specifically redo the left side of your panel pushing the 6 pack a tad to the left.  Move the VSI to it's typical position.   Push the nav head to the right, and mount the JPI EDM900 vertically above it.   Or alternately mount the nav head high (if you actually use it in addition to the HSI) and the JPI low.  Note you may run into clearance issues between the STEC 30 and the steel cage on the left (I did), in which case put it where mine is and keep the VSI in the six pack on the left.   Get rid of the lousy Garwin 6 engine gauge cluster.  Maybe consider keeping the RPM and MP gauges as backups for when the EDM900 acts up (long story).  

 

I like the yokes on your C model.  Where did you get those done at?  Looking to do similar with mine.  Love the idea of keeping the RPM and MP as backups.  I did not realize that could be done.   I have a P1000 tach I really do not want to lose (I kinda like it). But losing those two gauges is what has been keeping me from going from my JPI700 to the 900.

Edited by wings_level
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The yokes are done here. http://aerocomfort.com

But you might need to find some 201 yokes to use... and then you probably need new shafts as well. I put the same yokes in my M20C a few years ago.

I bought the 201 yokes already covered by AeroComfort. Then bought the new shafts from Mooney via SWTA. SWTA did the installation. 

IMG_0568.thumb.jpg.75dd7763146f1cdc9f58b31f915d63a4.jpg

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aeadfd911da5811f93e7c6911c8640d9.jpg671351e4c03d3719e1366a48ed72a354.jpg


Just to add my two cents. I added the 900 just to the right of my six pack. It fits well there and the position also helps with the scan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 1:04 AM, redcatcher27 said:

Thanks so much for your advice James. I was so naive to think that I could just move things around where I'd like them without any regard to whether or not they will actually fit BEHIND the panel.  That just never occured to me.  i.e. I expected it would be easy to "fix" the six pack and move the VSI from it current (and original) location to its "rightful" place under the Altimeter, swapping places with the OBS. But the 8 inch long OBS probably wouldn't fit over there, against the steel cage. So if I do move the VSI, I will probably have to find a new place for the OBS. Lots to think about! 

 

'67 F here...

I think panels on our airplanes are similar if not the same. I don't think you'll have any issues mounting 2 CGR30 in those two holes as in my top location I have old ADF indicator that is much longer then CGR30 that is at the present located below.

I am just about to start Garmin GTX335 install and will remove ADF at this time. Also, I will completely remove 6 pack engine instruments that, at the moment, I use only Fuel level gages and install Aerospace Logic 202 fuel gage. I plan to move CGR30 on top location and I'm certain there's more then enough room for that.

So, that is one of the options you have as well considering you want round gages, the other one is CGR30 combo of two instruments which his more money.

One or the other, would remove all the old engine instruments you have on RHS panel

 

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On 2/11/2019 at 1:04 AM, redcatcher27 said:

I was so naive to think that I could just move things around where I'd like them without any regard to whether or not they will actually fit BEHIND the panel. 

 Not certain I would not necessary call it being naive....for me it is lessons  learned or experience with a certain project .  I still have not learn from the school of hard knocks. It i when I things are going to be  so simple but nooooo seems like there has to  be unforeseen  catch.  I too tried to re-arrange the instruments on left side panel many years ago  put everything  where I wanted them  started hooking things back up didn't think of it but then I realized the parts needed and the time involved was goimg to  take plane down longer than I wanted. so I had to put all the  instruments back. and years latter I bought  panel  laid out   like I wanted it. 

I honestly did not think any of  space behind the panel until I was putting everything back together it took me awhile figure out where interference was coming from. I had panel off many times without any problems.

That is why MooneySpace exists :-) a lot of  experience and wisdom  exist here. I am thankful they are willing to share.

Edited by jamesm
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On 2/15/2019 at 11:35 AM, Igor_U said:

I don't think you'll have any issues mounting 2 CGR30 in those two holes as in my top location I have old ADF indicator that is much longer then CGR30 that is at the present located below.

I forgot to mention the my right side panel has an fold/angle in it. so that the interments are easier to read from the Pilot seat.  So that may have been causing part of my issue. 

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I know mine’s a Piper, but I love the JPI 930 as a primary.  I was able to remove all engine gauges and MP/tach.  The 930 is mounted in a custom-made mount to angle it slightly toward the pilot.  It’s quite visible and seems you have a comparable location for mounting.  Notice there’s also an annunciator (red) on the pilot side that displays MP/RPM and any out of range warnings.

C9128FFB-F768-43F3-9D94-5CA532C36628.thumb.jpeg.b1940180407c1e9be0034721714d92c2.jpeg

Edited by 2105T
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On 2/11/2019 at 11:43 AM, rbridges said:

I have a similar center stack except I have a 430.  This allows me to put the KX155 in the bottom center.  I really like having the 2nd comm closer.  My transponder is actually to the right of center.

 

On 2/10/2019 at 2:21 AM, redcatcher27 said:

I absolutely love my 1968 M20F! I really love everything about it, with the lone exception of my archaic engine instrumentation and the general lack of data it provides - like fuel flow and individual cylinder head temps, and almost useless fuel quantity estimates.  Just as soon as one of those old suckers fail (or maybe sooner), I plan on removing it all, redoing my panel, and updating to some sort of a primary cluster type of engine monitoring system.  I haven't decided on an EI CGR-30 Combo, JPI EDM-900, or something else, but I do prefer the round forms and think that at least aesthetically, they would look better in my panel. Because, I have zero desire to change out any of my round flight instruments on the left side of my panel - I really prefer the vintage look. (I fly glass at work, and I really don't need any more reminders of work)

So...my question to all of our great mooniacs, experts and commentators out there is: 

Where should I put a new primary engine monitor(s), and how would you rearrange everything else that is left...

Thanks in advance for all of your great ideas!

Old Panel.jpg

I think to keep the vintage look, keep the "Steam Gauge" look on a tilted panel towards the pilot's seat with instruments like this:

 

opt1-2-1-outline-300x300.pngr11-300x300.pngfl2-2-1-outline.pngsr8acut1-1-1-outline-2.png

Edited by The Avionics Specialists
Wrong Pics Attached
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Thanks for all the input and sage advice. Today, a dream became a reality. Added the CGR-30 Combo and removed all the old engine gages.  New CiES Fuel Senders. Thanks to the great team at Gardner Lowe Aviation at KFFC - they did awesome job and I'm very happy with the results!

89LW New Panel.jpg

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We could send a message to the Ceis guy and the EI guy... @fuellevel and @oregon87... to let them know they got an awesome pirep regarding their goods and services...

If I had a contact for GL... https://www.gardneravs.com/contact.aspx I’d send them here to see the pirep... :)

Best regards,

-a-

 

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I don't own this airplane ('67 F) any more, but absolutely loved flying behind this panel.  It was done by Muncie Aviation (KMIE) IMG_0550.thumb.JPG.f86574f0078db5bc2cf3fad0318c52d2.JPG

Edited by Glenn
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