New Pilot - Looking for Mooney for IFR training and beyond

[DingyHarry]

Hi All,

 

I am a very new pilot and am considering a Mooney for both IFR training as well as for traveling approximately 300NM or less. I would appreciate any advice you may have regarding the search for a good Mooney. I would like to keep the total cost (plane + any required overhaul/equipment installs) to under 100K. Also, if you have any great buys on your radar, I would appreciate the heads up! I am located in Raleigh, NC. Thanks again. 

[Niko182]

How much do you weigh? FIKI, TKS? what exactly do you want it for. if it's you and another person an E should do the job just fine. If its 3 or 4 people, I'd look at a an F. both the m20F and E are 145 knot to 150 knot planes so 300 NM or less is a 2 hour and 10 minute flight. If you want IFR capabilities, An M20E/F with a WAAS GPS and an STEC30 will make a really nice traveling plane. I'd want at least a 430W, so when the time comes, it can easily be switched out with a Avidyne 440, and an Stec autopilot would be nice, so when the time comes you can upgrade to the 3100.

[Bob_Belville]

Harry, your budget should allow you to acquire a nice M20C, E, or F - any of which should nicely meet your stated missions - and have enough left to deal with first year surprises as well as some improvements your bird needs. 

There are many threads here on costs and values and the relative market for those 3 models but we'd recommend you keep your search flexible as to model, i.e don't pass up a nice C because you think you have to have an E. With all these "vintage" planes the status of the engine time, avionics, and the condition and appearance of exterior and interior outweigh the model and year.

[DingyHarry]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I have my eye on a few birds along the east coast. Mainly in NC/SC/GA. I would like to go check one out this weekend. Could you guys advise me on what to look for when I examine the plane this weekend? I imagine it is important to bring someone that knows what they are looking at and can give professional advice on the value of the plane and whether its a good buy or to run. Does anyone have any names they can recommend? Thanks again!

[sgrooves]

I did the same thing as you. Bought my J for my instrument training and a little longer cross-countries (500-600nm). I bought the plane only a couple months after my PPL. I started at about the 100k level, and considered a bird in the mid-90's area. Ended up going a bit above to get something that was basically turn-key with some upgrades I'd have probably wanted to do later. This was a few years ago when the market for J's wasn't quite as tight as it is now. I'm in Charlotte NC. The NA Mooney's are pretty perfect for the flying around this part of the country and it was awesome to get my instrument rating in my own plane. All of the instruction right after purchase really helped make me more comfortable.

I'm sure others will chime in with more, but everyone will agree that a good PPI is most important. Some quick things you can see.... look for signs of fuel seepage under the wings (especially this time of year when sealant dries and shrinks). I know many have looked for sagging spinners that could show signs of engine mounts needing replacement. Take a look at the condition of the gear pucks and windows/windshield.  @AGL Aviation is a close Mooney Service Center if you find one in this part of the country.  There's also a pretty long article about the various Mooney models and what to look for near the middle (some things you'll need to wait for a PPI): https://lasar.com/buyers-guide/ Good luck!

[carusoam]

First round... reading logs...

Second round... looking at the plane in person...

Third round... where things get expensive... Pre-Purchase Inspection....

Fourth round... Transition Training

Fifth round... delivery flight home

Sounds like a lot of work... kind of like flying your own plane... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Davidv]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

First round... reading logs...

Second round... looking at the plane in person...

Third round... where things get expensive... Pre-Purchase Inspection....

Fourth round... Transition Training

Fifth round... delivery flight home

Sounds like a lot of work... kind of like flying your own plane... 

Best regards,

-a-

Sixth round...where things get even more expensive ;)

 

[Bob_Belville]

Mark Kolber @midlifeflyeris a Mooney savvy CFII in the Raleigh area.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mark Kolber @midlifeflyeris a Mooney savvy CFII in the Raleigh area.

That's nice to say, but a disclaimer. Although I feel comfortable and competent teaching in them, including transitions, my level of in-depth systems knowledge is that of a non-owner. I would not be a good advisor in terms of what to look for on a purchase (although in my guise of mild-mannered semi-retired aviation lawyer, I write a mean buy-sell :D).

Using @carusoam's list, while I can be helpful for 4th and 5th, and can obviously read logs, I'd be limited on 1st and 2nd to the most obvious and pretty useless for 3rd.

[Bob_Belville]

2 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

That's nice to say, but a disclaimer. Although I feel comfortable and competent teaching in them, including transitions, my level of in-depth systems knowledge is that of a non-owner. I would not be a good advisor in terms of what to look for on a purchase (although in my guise of mild-mannered semi-retired aviation lawyer, I write a mean buy-sell :D).

Using @carusoam's list, while I can be helpful for 4th and 5th, and can obviously read logs, I'd be limited on 1st and 2nd to the most obvious and pretty useless for 3rd.

Mark, I may have misunderstood the OP. I put your name out because he mentioned using the plane for IR training but perhaps he has an instructor already.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mark, I may have misunderstood the OP. I put your name out because he mentioned using the plane for IR training but perhaps he has an instructor already.

I understood, Bob. @DingyHarry may be looking for some training as well, so I definitely appreciate the shoutout. But since the thread is more about finding the right airplane, I thought I'd clarify. I know that many Mooney instructors, especially those involved in the MAPA foundation courses, have incredible systems knowledge and can be very helpful in finding the right Mooney.

 

[carusoam]

For one stop shopping... start with a resource like All American Aircraft... they specialize in selling Mooneys...

For PPIs... Use an independent resource like DMax aviation...  the PPI is typically close to where the plane seller is.  AGL is a well known resource...

For Transition Training, the CFI can be from either end... Best to build a relationship with a CFI you can use again after you get home...

 

Expect that things get expensive when you are paying a few professionals to help you from making expensive errors... on each step...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

For Transition Training, the CFI can be from either end... Best to build a relationship with a CFI you can use again after you get home...

Expect that things get expensive when you are paying a few professionals to help you from making expensive errors... on each step...

First statement, I agree. Especially with the end--it's always good to know a local CFI / CFII.

The second part, using various pros to help you, will cost some, but it will be as nothing compared to the cost of buying the wrong plane. Just ask the [former?] MS member who bought a plane then found on the first annual that the wing spar was corroded . . . . .

[bradp]

Raleigh area is tight in hangar space - do you have any leads?  RDU has pretty much pusher small GA out.  TTA is a good airport but a waiting list   If you’re NW Burlington is also wait list.  I’m not sure about the N and East airports.  

If you have plane leads - if you ask a local (there’s a Mooney map) a number If is have gone to take a look at a plane / snap some pictures   Putting pics here on Mooneyspace is helpful for some non expert and expert opinion.  

Always examine the wheel wells for evidence of spar web / sub spar corrosion.  

Im sure you have heard this adage but there are no deals in aviation to be had.  You will either buy a good example of a model or you will buy a bad example of a model and spend that much or more bring the airplane up to snuff.

you'll probably be looking at CEF and maybe some early Js.   

Things to prioritize- 

Autipilot required or not (yes for most of us)

Having has someone else upgrade avionics is always cheaper than you doing it. 

A plane that has flown regularly (especially important for lycomings) with an engine that has been cared for.  

Don’t rule out a bird because of a gear up (as compared to other DH) - I’d wager that a significant percentage of the vintage fleet has had a gear up.  If it’s more than 10 years I’d say it’s a non issue entirely.  If it’s a fresh gear up how the GU was repaired and the steps by which the engine was examined / repaired are very important.  

SB-208/B is also important.  

Big(ger) ticket items are wing tanks / gear donuts.  

Hope this helps- 

 

Edit: the last piece of advice I’d give is that the search for a Mooney is really a national effort.  After seeing some pretty ragged Js in person on the east coast and in Chicago- I settled on one that was across the country based on pics/logs and a thorough PPI/Annual with a well respected MSC.     

 

[DingyHarry]

Thanks again everyone. I thought I had a deal together with a very nice couple trying to sell their C but they decided to pull the plug and let a broker sell it instead. Guess they figure the 10%+ that the broker will take will be worth it. Anyway, I am back looking. Below are some of the items I am looking for in an M20

 

• Reliable - I plan to put some hours on the plane as I will use it for my IR and I also plan to fly it on the weekends to Florida (I live in Raleigh, NC)
• Prefer something from the 70s or newer
• Prefer a J but am open to other models. I really would prefer a fuel injected model.
• For the IFR training, I would prefer the plane to at least be equipped with a Garmin 530 or better. I would consider a 430 as well but prefer the 530. I obviously need this to be a solid IFR platform. 
• I don't care about the paintjob as long as there is NO CORROSION. Obviously I would love to find a bird with some great skin but the exterior cosmetics are not that important to me. 
• I would like the interior to be fresh, maybe even redone in the recent past. I prefer no cracking of panels and some decently nice seats.
• From what I have read, I think I should be looking for a plane with less than 1300 SMOH and less than 4000ish TT

 

Is it possible to find a plane in this condition for well under $100,000? If anyone has any leads, please let me know. I can travel anywhere in North America to get it. Thanks. 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by DingyHarry

[carusoam]

For getting a feel for the market...   All American Aircarft does a great job of adervitising, pricing, pics...

They specialize in the better half of available Mooneys...

If you get a chance to visit... you learn a bunch in a very short period of time...

https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

Click on their inventory button to see what they have...

Compare what they have to what you are seeing locally.

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyPoor]

22 hours ago, DingyHarry said:

Thanks again everyone. I thought I had a deal together with a very nice couple trying to sell their C but they decided to pull the plug and let a broker sell it instead. Guess they figure the 10%+ that the broker will take will be worth it. Anyway, I am back looking. Below are some of the items I am looking for in an M20

 

• Reliable - I plan to put some hours on the plane as I will use it for my IR and I also plan to fly it on the weekends to Florida (I live in Raleigh, NC)
• Prefer something from the 70s or newer
• Prefer a J but am open to other models. I really would prefer a fuel injected model.
• For the IFR training, I would prefer the plane to at least be equipped with a Garmin 530 or better. I would consider a 430 as well but prefer the 530. I obviously need this to be a solid IFR platform. 
• I don't care about the paintjob as long as there is NO CORROSION. Obviously I would love to find a bird with some great skin but the exterior cosmetics are not that important to me. 
• I would like the interior to be fresh, maybe even redone in the recent past. I prefer no cracking of panels and some decently nice seats.
• From what I have read, I think I should be looking for a plane with less than 1300 SMOH and less than 4000ish TT

 

Is it possible to find a plane in this condition for well under $100,000? If anyone has any leads, please let me know. I can travel anywhere in North America to get it. Thanks. 

 

 

There's a 78 J on Controller that meets most of those reqs for $95k and a couple others at ~115k.. I would add a decent Autopilot to your list of things to consider and ADSB just to avoid the headache. Well under 100K??--if you find what you believe is a fantastic deal on a 70s model J with your reqs, I would venture to say there are some reasons why the deal is sweet. You can find a really nicely equipped C/E/F for under a 100k but the nicer the equipment and lower time the engine, the shinier the paint, and the cooler the seats...even those will creep up nearing "well under 100k".

I set minimums for what i wanted...had to be an F or J--family trips and the little extra room would be nice--Engine time under 750-800 ideal / avionics IFR certified because I'm flying family and weather doesn't wait for vacation days to align (430w / adsb out / autopilot 2axis) / decent interior and paint(to me these are almost fixed cost, ie, I want new seats and things 10AMU, avionics and engines are always a variable in my head and my wallet....new GTN750 sells for 15ish but installation well it could be, it may be, it should be...how long will i be without a plane(being youre going to want it for training)..1 month-8 weeks--?? This is why I believe folks will say find one with what you want in it...saves you the headache, downtime, and unforeseen costs.

I then priced out different configurations and decided on what i would and wouldn't budge on. Then wait to find the plane that matches your needs and wants. Hint--probably wont find it on normal sites but would definitely suggest emailing @jgarrison to get on his incoming list and network like crazy because someone somewhere has a gem sitting in a hangar they just haven't come to terms with selling yet...but they will and you want that deal.

[bill98]

On 2/12/2019 at 9:53 AM, DingyHarry said:

Thanks again everyone. I thought I had a deal together with a very nice couple trying to sell their C but they decided to pull the plug and let a broker sell it instead. Guess they figure the 10%+ that the broker will take will be worth it. Anyway, I am back looking. Below are some of the items I am looking for in an M20

 

• Reliable - I plan to put some hours on the plane as I will use it for my IR and I also plan to fly it on the weekends to Florida (I live in Raleigh, NC)
• Prefer something from the 70s or newer
• Prefer a J but am open to other models. I really would prefer a fuel injected model.
• For the IFR training, I would prefer the plane to at least be equipped with a Garmin 530 or better. I would consider a 430 as well but prefer the 530. I obviously need this to be a solid IFR platform. 
• I don't care about the paintjob as long as there is NO CORROSION. Obviously I would love to find a bird with some great skin but the exterior cosmetics are not that important to me. 
• I would like the interior to be fresh, maybe even redone in the recent past. I prefer no cracking of panels and some decently nice seats.
• From what I have read, I think I should be looking for a plane with less than 1300 SMOH and less than 4000ish TT

 

Is it possible to find a plane in this condition for well under $100,000? If anyone has any leads, please let me know. I can travel anywhere in North America to get it. Thanks. 

 

 

3

How many folks you planning on bringing up in the air with you? I have a 65 M20E and no kids. It has the Johnson bar gear so it is super realiable. Pretty updated Avionics (Not award winning by any means but glass Aspen , WAAS GPS, Autopilot with GPSS - no altitude hold though) I burn 9 GPH going 150 KTS.