avionics upgrade advice

[gsxrpilot]

I like to keep my Aspen PFD decluttered. I figure the IFD 540 GPS right next to it in the panel is a much better place for Traffic, Weather, Synthetic Vision, etc. Now if I had an MFD like @Marauder I'd use that for the extra clutter.

[Danb]

All our great stuff isn’t a cure for a mental error,

I recently  was going into a Class Bravo airport forecast vfr, atis was vfr, Approach control said direct blah blah landing 15L, great easy peasy, entered the clouds, given quickly direct xxx ILS 15l, not ready Dan being a dumb ass threw the loc frequency for 15R, there were a bunch of approaches, oh did I say I’m a dumb ass, controller says your right of course can I make it back to localizer, sure it looks great to dumb ass, at about 800 breaking out I notice 15L way over there oops, landed no problem...I fully expected hey Dan ahh contact the tower on phone, luckily no further issues other than embarrassment which could have been a major problem. Air carriers were landing 15R so I was real lucky,

Stay focused especially with our state of the art equipment 

[Marauder]

All our great stuff isn’t a cure for a mental error,
I recently  was going into a Class Bravo airport forecast vfr, atis was vfr, Approach control said direct blah blah landing 15L, great easy peasy, entered the clouds, given quickly direct xxx ILS 15l, not ready Dan being a dumb ass threw the loc frequency for 15R, there were a bunch of approaches, oh did I say I’m a dumb ass, controller says your right of course can I make it back to localizer, sure it looks great to dumb ass, at about 800 breaking out I notice 15L way over there oops, landed no problem...I fully expected hey Dan ahh contact the tower on phone, luckily no further issues other than embarrassment which could have been a major problem. Air carriers were landing 15R so I was real lucky,
Stay focused especially with our state of the art equipment 

Whatcha doing going into Baltimore?


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[Danb]

Dr’s appt every month.

[Marauder]

Dr’s appt every month.

How many times have I told you that they aren’t going to make you into a 6 footer. You still haven’t stopped over for your O2 fill up.


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[Danb]

I know I do have the adapter, will do before spring flying season...thanks. I'm up 14 inches to 5"3'

[Brent]

15 hours ago, alextstone said:

You mentioned the display being cluttered.  When fling an approach, i like to switch from the HSI 360 degree Mode to the arc (120 degree) mode and I change the items displayed to eliminate data I do not want to see.  Have you experimented with these options?

I tried it early on and went back to 360. But being more comfortable with the different looks, I’ll try the arc view again. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Brent]

11 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

You need to add the MFD.

I also noticed you have everything turned on. The little bar on the lower left shows the level of “declutter” that is on. You can play with turning things off it as another suggested, run in arc mode.




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I’ve got an old MX20 off to the right on top of a 430. I’d like to do some upgrading, and the MFD wouldn’t be a bad option. But I spent my whole allowance on the plane...

[Brent]

11 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

You need to add the MFD.

I also noticed you have everything turned on. The little bar on the lower left shows the level of “declutter” that is on. You can play with turning things off it as another suggested, run in arc mode.




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I like the traffic on the Aspen. I’ve got an ADS-B In datalink, but not on the panel displays. 

[Marauder]

I like the traffic on the Aspen. I’ve got an ADS-B In datalink, but not on the panel displays. 

When you say you have ADS-B In, but not on the panel displays are you saying that you don’t have the ADS-B enablement turned on? For me being on the east coast, the SVT has been more of a novelty. The ADS-B enablement on the other hand has been an awesome addition.


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[MIm20c]

12 hours ago, Brent said:

I tried it early on and went back to 360. But being more comfortable with the different looks, I’ll try the arc view again. Thanks for the reminder.

 

I actually prefer the opposite. I sometimes use the arc view enroute but the 360 view on approach for SA. 

[larrynimmo]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 8:15 PM, DanM20C said:

Do you have a single or double que FD?  It you have the double (I do with my C41). The computer needs to go back to century and get converted to single.

Please keep us posted how this turns out.  As I’m probably going a similar route.

Cheers,

Dan

dear dan,

thanks for your reply....attached is a picture of my panel (about a month ago during annual) can you tell by the picture whether it is a single or double?

[DanM20C]

1 hour ago, larrynimmo said:

dear dan,

thanks for your reply....attached is a picture of my panel (about a month ago during annual) can you tell by the picture whether it is a single or double?

You have a double cue.  In your photo the FD command bars are turned off.  To turn them on you twist the nob on the AI.

Unfortunately Aspen doesn't support the double cue and our C41's output one or the other, not both.  You will need to send the autopilot computer to Century to get converted. 

I believe this must be done to legally have the Aspen drive the Century.  In other words the FD command bar must be able to be displayed on the AI(Aspen).  But... I could be wrong.  Hopefully someone here will tell me I'm wrong, it's another expense that I'm not crazy about.  It might be the thing that pushes me to the G5's with GCF500.

In your photo I don't see a CO detector?  Sorry, it's my job to nag.

Cheers,

Dan   

[Marauder]

You have a double cue.  In your photo the FD command bars are turned off.  To turn them on you twist the nob on the AI.
Unfortunately Aspen doesn't support the double cue and our C41's output one or the other, not both.  You will need to send the autopilot computer to Century to get converted. 
I believe this must be done to legally have the Aspen drive the Century.  In other words the FD command bar must be able to be displayed on the AI(Aspen).  But... I could be wrong.  Hopefully someone here will tell me I'm wrong, it's another expense that I'm not crazy about.  It might be the thing that pushes me to the G5's with GCF500.
In your photo I don't see a CO detector?  Sorry, it's my job to nag.
Cheers,
Dan   

Dan - I’m pretty sure the flight director options are just that for any of the autopilots that interface with the Aspen. You don’t need the flight director for the autopilot to work with the Aspen.

My STEC did not have a flight director and I added it later to my Aspen.

What you may be referring to is that if you want a flight director on the Aspen, it must be a single cue to work. The Century needs to be converted by Century to work as a single cue.




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[DanM20C]

18 hours ago, Marauder said:

Dan - I’m pretty sure the flight director options are just that for any of the autopilots that interface with the Aspen. You don’t need the flight director for the autopilot to work with the Aspen.

I understood the Aspen would still drive the autopilot.  I'm confused to weather or not you legally need the C41 FD to be displayed. I had a sales person from Aspen (at Airventure) and another avionics tech tell me that it needed to be retained for the C41.  Of course they very well could be wrong.

I hope you can have the option to not retain the FD function.  That would keep the price of the Aspen low enough to at least consider keeping the C41, rather than going down the Garmin road.  I would rather have the Aspen over G5's but the GFC500 is really tempting.

Cheers,

Dan 

[Marauder]

3 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

I understood the Aspen would still drive the autopilot.  I'm confused to weather or not you legally need the C41 FD to be displayed. I had a sales person from Aspen (at Airventure) and another avionics tech tell me that it needed to be retained for the C41.  Of course they very well could be wrong.

I hope you can have the option to not retain the FD function.  That would keep the price of the Aspen low enough to at least consider keeping the C41, rather than going down the Garmin road.  I would rather have the Aspen over G5's but the GFC500 is really tempting.

Cheers,

Dan 

I would be surprised the flight director is required. I do not believe it is standard on any of the Century autopilots. I never had the flight director on my STEC and opted for the single cue to be installed on the Aspen. I have it wired so that it can be activated with or without the autopilot servos engaged. For those who aren't familiar, the flight director job's is to present a "cue" or flying wing that the "wedge" must be placed under to satisfy the navigation command. If you need to be climbing and turning to the right, the single cue will position the cue or flying wing in the correct orientation for the desired attitude and bank angle to meet the climbing turn requirement. When it is turned on with the autopilot, the wedge is followed by the servos. Where the power of the flight director is when the servos are turned off and you hand fly the flight director commands to match the flight profile. It takes some time to get used to, but does offer a degree of precision.

I suspect the double cue on the Century works like the King's version. Never like them. You basically adjust pitch and bank to match the double cue but the sight picture is completely different than the single cue.

[MIm20c]

From my understanding if the current AP/AI has a flight director it cannot be disabled. 

@larrynimmo Your panel looks great!  One thing to think about is your current AI and HSI are a little wider than normal 3 1/8. I’m pretty sure the screw holes will stick out beyond the edge of the Aspen. Mine is the same way and we’re filled in with flush rivets, not ideal for cosmetics. 

[DanM20C]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

I have it wired so that it can be activated with or without the autopilot servos engaged.

This is also how the FD works in the C41.  The autopilot doesn't have to be engaged to use.  Like you said, that would be silly if the FD was only on when the autopilot was engaged as the real benefit is to help with hand flying.

I have flown both single and double cue.  I actually like the double better but it's all what one is used to. 

4 hours ago, MIm20c said:

From my understanding if the current AP/AI has a flight director it cannot be disabled. 

This is my understanding too, but I can't find any info to confirm.  I'm going to call around on Monday and see if I can find the answer.

Cheers,

Dan

[N231BN]

The OP doesn't have a FD, many C41 equipped Mooney's were sold with a plain attitude indicator. I would guess the computer is still set up for a DC though, not sure.

FWIW, I much prefer a double cue flight director. They are more precise, especially in pitch. The Cessna 525 we had could switch between the two styles when you were flying. It may have been a better system than the King, I have never flown one of them. Our old 340 had a DC with the Cessna autopilot(century gyro I think), it was as precise as a glass display.

[DanM20C]

38 minutes ago, N231BN said:

 

The OP doesn't have a FD, many C41 equipped Mooney's were sold with a plain attitude indicator

 

I missed that, you are correct. After looking at the photo closer I see that it only has one knob on the AI. 

All C41s computers contain a FD, the C31 did not.  I’m still confused to the legality of wether or not it needs to be retained if you have always had one.  I guess I could just pretend I never had one and no one would notice.

To the OP, as 1BN noticed you don’t have a FD.  But your computer does and it is most likely a double cue. 

cheers, 

Dan

[Marauder]

I missed that, you are correct. After looking at the photo closer I see that it only has one knob on the AI. 
All C41s computers contain a FD, the C31 did not.  I’m still confused to the legality of wether or not it needs to be retained if you have always had one.  I guess I could just pretend I never had one and no one would notice.
To the OP, as 1BN noticed you don’t have a FD.  But your computer does and it is most likely a double cue. 
cheers, 
Dan

I pulled up a Century IV manual. It looks like it can be configured with either a single or double cue. The picture above is definitely not a double cue.

https://www.centuryflight.com/images/operating-manuals/68S82.pdf

To the OP. A single cue flight director is an option on the Aspen. It can accept the flight director signal if it is available. Like I mentioned earlier, when my Aspen was originally installed, it didn’t have the flight director from the STEC. I had the STEC ST-670 installed and the flight director put on the Aspen.

If you don’t have the flight director set up to run with the AP servos turned, it will be a waste of money.


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[larrynimmo]

update....my plane went in the avionics shop yesterday...my installation project has gone back and forth for details ….first off the Aspen while STC'd for the plane as a primary flight display PFD, requires some sort of back-up gauge for all major functions....airspeed, altitude, vs , compass & attitude.  That is unless you pay for a Aspen Multi function Display MFD...Bottom line is that I will have to pay for some sort of new artificial horizon...I asked about using the AV-20 (which is an amazing back-up with tons of features) but Aspen says its not suitable as a back-up.  We considered abandoning the Aspen, and going with the G5 set, but the G5 AI does not output the AI stabilization info required by the Century 41 autopilot. So you have to keep your original vacuum AI to perform that function....and mine is not reliable enough to keep unless I pay to get it rebuilt.    The G5 HSI would do a good job steering the Century 41 with an analog adapter.(from what I have heard)

So we are now staying with the Aspen...To fulfil the "back-up" AI requirement, My installer is offering me a really good deal (add-on) of installing a Garmin G5 (AI only) for $3,000.

There is a lot of integration required for this install...special transformers EB-100, ACU adapter and a directional antenna, but at the end of the day, the Aspen is supposed to be fully functional with the Century 41.

More to come

[Zulee]

22 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

update....my plane went in the avionics shop yesterday...my installation project has gone back and forth for details ….first off the Aspen while STC'd for the plane as a primary flight display PFD, requires some sort of back-up gauge for all major functions....airspeed, altitude, vs , compass & attitude.  That is unless you pay for a Aspen Multi function Display MFD...Bottom line is that I will have to pay for some sort of new artificial horizon...I asked about using the AV-20 (which is an amazing back-up with tons of features) but Aspen says its not suitable as a back-up.  We considered abandoning the Aspen, and going with the G5 set, but the G5 AI does not output the AI stabilization info required by the Century 41 autopilot. So you have to keep your original vacuum AI to perform that function....and mine is not reliable enough to keep unless I pay to get it rebuilt.    The G5 HSI would do a good job steering the Century 41 with an analog adapter.(from what I have heard)

So we are now staying with the Aspen...To fulfil the "back-up" AI requirement, My installer is offering me a really good deal (add-on) of installing a Garmin G5 (AI only) for $3,000.

There is a lot of integration required for this install...special transformers EB-100, ACU adapter and a directional antenna, but at the end of the day, the Aspen is supposed to be fully functional with the Century 41.

More to come

I faced the same decision even with both PFD MFD. I went with the G5

[PT20J]

There is a really good point here. I see a lot of threads on MS and other forums that focus on the technical aspects of interfaces between boxes while overlooking the fact that the STCs control what configurations are legal for certified aircraft. Manufactures can limit configurations permitted by STC for business as well as technical reasons. 

Skip

[larrynimmo]

UPDATE....here is the latest....there is no easy way to get where you want to be unless you do the research.

I decided to take a step backwards to gain a lot.   I am now buying the E5...The E5 with its high res screen and processor is the physical machine of the new Evolution 1000Pro Max...that being said, its expensive to upgrade, but with doing this, I wont need to send the unit back to Aspen.  Also, the E5 does not require a backup Altitude indicator. Now I don't need the G5 as a back up.  Of course I will have to wait until the Evolution 1000ProMax gets approved, then I will pay for the upgrade if I feel that I really want it.

It is also my intention to get a panel mounted back-up AI and will likely get the AV-30 once it is approved.

I will keep you all posted when I am done and I will send you pictures and details once complete.