20C

[steingar]

Eventually, but we aren't there yet.  And yes, there will be exceptions that don't wind up in Paul's book.  But I promise those will be the outliers.  Airplanes don't like to sit, it isn't good for them.  Indeed, every airframe I've seen that was refurbished with modern avionics and good paint/new engine wound up getting way more spent on it than it was worth.  I've a friend doing that to his Skyhawk right now.  Personally, I think I unwittingly did it to my Mooney.  Its insidious.  Things are so expensive when it comes to airplanes.

The only reason any of this makes any sense is if you get an airplane, refurbish it to really good condition and invest all that money you can wind up with what is  for all effects a new airplane for fraction of what a new airplane might cost.  Acquisition and restoration costs will probably run south of a quarter million, a new airplane costs three times that.  I think that's my friend's motivation, he'll have a really nice airplane for a fraction the cost of a new one.

The caveat is you'd better really like that airplane, since you're going to want to keep it to enjoy all that stuff you put in.  Of course the other caveat is the second you put something in the panel you've frozen your panel in time.  It gets very difficult and expensive to put in newer technology, and technology always changes.

[Prior owner]

19 hours ago, David_H said:

 

Many owners looking get out from under planes like this (not flown and likely poorly maintained) seem to be very ill informed... or looking to outright take advantage of a buyer that doesn't know any better.

You are being quite charitable.... my point of view is that if someone is looking to get out from under a plane, then they ARE well informed! 

 

Another option, if you live in the vicinity of a city college with an A&P night program, is to suck it up and do 19 months of night school M-F to get your A&P.

Edited February 4, 2019 by PilotCoyote

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

Eventually, but we aren't there yet.  And yes, there will be exceptions that don't wind up in Paul's book.  But I promise those will be the outliers.  Airplanes don't like to sit, it isn't good for them.  Indeed, every airframe I've seen that was refurbished with modern avionics and good paint/new engine wound up getting way more spent on it than it was worth.  I've a friend doing that to his Skyhawk right now.  Personally, I think I unwittingly did it to my Mooney.  Its insidious.  Things are so expensive when it comes to airplanes.

The only reason any of this makes any sense is if you get an airplane, refurbish it to really good condition and invest all that money you can wind up with what is  for all effects a new airplane for fraction of what a new airplane might cost.  Acquisition and restoration costs will probably run south of a quarter million, a new airplane costs three times that.  I think that's my friend's motivation, he'll have a really nice airplane for a fraction the cost of a new one.

The caveat is you'd better really like that airplane, since you're going to want to keep it to enjoy all that stuff you put in.  Of course the other caveat is the second you put something in the panel you've frozen your panel in time.  It gets very difficult and expensive to put in newer technology, and technology always changes.

I like this, very well said. This is my plan and justification for what I'm doing with my Mooney. If I had the $$ for a brand new airplane, I would like a brand new M2K 252 Encore. But they don't exist. And so if I can bring my 252 back to brand new/modern condition and at the same time upgrade it to Encore status... it will be exactly what I wanted. The fact that it will only be worth 70% of what I've spent on it is irrelevant to me. I'll have the plane I want and will get more than the 30% shortfall back in use and enjoyment.

But this only makes sense for a forever plane. Which is typically not a first plane. I thought my M20C might have been a forever plane, but then realized I needed/wanted a bit more and it was still within the realm of affordability. 

One other point I'll make is that it's one thing to bring a plane back to airworthy status. Those planes exist for much less than it would take to bring one back. It's another thing to take an airworthy example, and bring it back to "like new" condition. That can be done step by step over time, while still flying and enjoying the use of the airplane. And of course, you're creating an airplane that doesn't exist for any amount of money.

[KLRDMD]

14 hours ago, GLJA said:

I don’t think so. I’ve had two AME’s now look at it. It’s in good shape. I knew going in, there would be issues. It was all in the budget, just all came a lot faster than I’d preferred to have. 

I hope you're right but statistically speaking, I stand by "you ain't seen nothin' yet."

[Marauder]

You are being quite charitable.... my point of view is that if someone is looking to get out from under a plane, then they ARE well informed! 
 

Based on what I am seeing out there, I believe there is a sizable population of planes that have been “parked” for a variety of reasons. The turbo E guy who showed up last week on this site is a prime example. Life has a means to get in the way of flying. My airport and a host of others have a population of low to non-flying planes.

Some of these owners have never mentally left their plane’s glory days and still believe the plane, with “a little TLC”, will be back to its former glory even though the plane hasn’t moved in years. There are others that have minimal hours on them annually, typically flown for the annual. Others are sitting because the owner was/is dealing with a health issue. Most of the aforementioned planes aren’t sitting for financial reasons. It’s just the pilot isn’t ready to let it go. And when that decision happens, it is usually due to their death or someone else making the decision to move the plane.

There are some planes available out there because the owner took on too much. We have seen several of them on this forum.

The challenge is how to make an assessment without getting caught up in a money pit.

Here is a real life example. A Mooney owner purchased an early J model with 1,300 original hours on it. Agreed upon a price and then got surprised when the PPI turned into an annual (at the same MSC who annualed it for years) discovered that a minor oil leak turned out to be a cracked case. Because of the timing and a broker in the middle, the situation got ugly. The MSC took the high ground and agreed to do the engine swap for free. The owner got stuck for the cost of an engine (he elected to put in a factory new). The previous owner got a check.




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[GLJA]

35 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I hope you're right but statistically speaking, I stand by "you ain't seen nothin' yet."

And you're entitled to your opinion.  

[gsxrpilot]

10 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 My airport and a host of others have a population of low to non-flying planes.

There are some planes available out there because the owner took on too much. We have seen several of them on this forum.

 

And airports also have lots of guys/girls young and old, either wishing they could afford to fly, or trying to find a way to build hours. 

I hope that if I'm ever in a situation where my plane isn't flying, that I'll have the sense to make it available to be flown by some such person. They pay the difference to be named on the insurance, pay a dry rate, or pay for everything and fly it like they own it. That way if I'm ever back in a position to fly, it's still in good shape and ready to go. 

I like owning my plane without a partner. But that's because I can afford the time and the $$ to fly in excess of 200 hours per year. If I ever got down to less then 100 hours per year, I hope I'd have the sense to take on a partner or two. 

Keep the plane flying, maintain it, and keep it up to date on everything.

[Prior owner]

22 minutes ago, Marauder said:

It’s just the pilot isn’t ready to let it go.
 

 

Yes, perhaps I am being too harsh.. 

I have a friend whose a plane that has been sitting in a hangar for over 9 years, and he can’t let it go. The irony is that that is exactly what has happened.... they have ”let it go”. I suppose there is far more of an emotional component for some owners than there is for others. I fall into the latter group, as I would never be able to accept the cost of hangaring an unairworthy or never flown aircraft... I think that the PO of my plane had a much deeper connection to his plane than I first realized, as it took him many years to make the decision to sell. But when that time came, he was fully aware of what it would take to get it airworthy again, and priced it accordingly. We struck a fair bargain, and each walked away feeling good about the deal.  In the first 4 months I spent more on parts than I did on the plane. So far, my estimate was about 25% low. I still have a ways to go, however.

That said, I was not prepared in the beginning for the journey that I would create for myself- my need to clean and inspect every last inch of the plane, to go ahead and replace items that some others might have waited to address (But I cannot stand removing the same panels/components later to get to somethIng that I knew was questionable back when I had it apart the first time).

I may feel a much deeper connection with the plane once I finally get it off the ground....but for now, it’s been an endless chain of “Well, I might as well do this too, since I have everything opened up right now”, and I have felt almost no satisfaction at all, working in a cold hangar for hours for days for months, not even knowing what it feels like to start it and taxi it... but we are finally getting close, and I remain hopeful that it will all be worth it, that I’ll be grinning from ear to ear when I raise the gear in the air for the first time.

 

[carusoam]

16 hours ago, McMooney said:

when it comes to price is there a price god that says mooney x is only worth y?

i thought that was a mechanism of the market?  if this mooney + repairs say overhaul cost 40k isnt' that what it's worth?  the hell with some guy saying it's worth less eventually the supply of cheap planes will be gone and that 40k will seem like a steal.

Yes and no...

There is a resource that has put together a price guide for Mooneys... based on a collection of personal experience and data from selling Mooneys for a living...

Is he a God?

No, not technically... 

Find Jimmy... then you can decide for yourself.

 

Think twice about market mechanisms... and how a market works... and statistics...  our market is so small, there are very few statistics available...  one person either buying or selling can change the market, where you are, or on that day....

Just when you think you have the seller cornered... somebody with more loose dough comes along...

Market forces aren’t always friendly...

Best regards,

-a-

[bob865]

This seems like a good point to share my experience buying a version of what the OP asked.  Old guy at my airport owned a 75 M20E.  The next to last M20E ever produced, so cool story there.  He was an active pilot for a long time, but his health had deteriorated and couldn't fly anymore.  His plan was to give it to his grandson, but his grandson decided he didn't want it so it just sat.  The owner kept it maintained as well as you can considering he couldn't fly it.  He had a buddy that would fly it every few months at most and he kept it in annual.  He even still 'worked' on the plane, chaning the windows right before I bought it.  So a couple of years of little to no activity, but still 'cared' for.  And a great asking price, well below the proverbial book price.  I put her through a pre-buy with a respected MSC and they found nothing of any concern.  A few older/worn parts, but nothing that posed a safety of flight issue.  The wost thing was old shock discs.  So I bought it.

I've now owned her about a year and a half.  Right now she is parked at Wet Wingologists in Florida getting her tanks resealed. ($7k).  Almost immediately after purchase, the AI went out.  So we replaced it with a G5 because why not upgrade right?  That identified a pitot/static leak.  $4200 later, that is resolved and G5 is in.  Radio is now failing.  Not looking forward to that expense.  Not really a viable used market for the radio becuase it's so old.  The shock discs I mentioned earlier, doing those as soon as it gets back because I'm not beating up my newly sealed tanks($1500-2000).  Oh and had to do ADS-B out upgrade.  That was $2k for the skybeacon.  All of this to say, my first year of ownership cost me $12k and this year is forecast to be another $12k and that's not including the normal LOP list of items: Fuel gauges, compass light not working, comm2 radio failed, temp gauge not working, etc, etc, etc.  In the first two years, I will have spent more on the ownership costs than I did on the purchase.  And that doesn't include any nice to have upgrades like a GPS or upgraded autopilot.  Oh and don't forget normal inspections: transponder, annual, etc.  Those always sneak up on you.

Do I regret it, heck no.  I love my plane.  But I do have a love hate relationship with her most days. I love flying her, but hate what she does to my wallet.  When I finally getting my instrument rating out of the way, I'm going to love her a whole lot more.  I cancel a lot of trips now due to weather because being a younger guy (compared to the mooneyspace population) and I don't want to call out of work on a Monday becuase it's cloudy. 

Just remember, in general flying is a hobby of pasion.  If anyone here tells you they fly because it's cheaper or makes their life easier is lying through their teeth.  Just make sure you have the budget set right and you'll be fine.

[steingar]

My airplane didn't fly much before I bought it, but I could tell it flew enough.  It flies more with me.  I intend it to be the last aircraft I own.  I'll fly it until I can fly no more, and then I'll sell it for what I can get.  I don't view it as my property.  I view myself as its caretaker.  It was here before me, and my job is to make certain it is here when I'm gone.

If we don't have this mindset airplanes will disappear from the world.

[McMooney]

4 hours ago, bob865 said:

This seems like a good point to share my experience buying a version of what the OP asked.  Old guy at my airport owned a 75 M20E.  The next to last M20E ever produced, so cool story there.  He was an active pilot for a long time, but his health had deteriorated and couldn't fly anymore.  His plan was to give it to his grandson, but his grandson decided he didn't want it so it just sat.  The owner kept it maintained as well as you can considering he couldn't fly it.  He had a buddy that would fly it every few months at most and he kept it in annual.  He even still 'worked' on the plane, chaning the windows right before I bought it.  So a couple of years of little to no activity, but still 'cared' for.  And a great asking price, well below the proverbial book price.  I put her through a pre-buy with a respected MSC and they found nothing of any concern.  A few older/worn parts, but nothing that posed a safety of flight issue.  The wost thing was old shock discs.  So I bought it. 

I've now owned her about a year and a half.  Right now she is parked at Wet Wingologists in Florida getting her tanks resealed. ($7k).  Almost immediately after purchase, the AI went out.  So we replaced it with a G5 because why not upgrade right?  That identified a pitot/static leak.  $4200 later, that is resolved and G5 is in.  Radio is now failing.  Not looking forward to that expense.  Not really a viable used market for the radio becuase it's so old.  The shock discs I mentioned earlier, doing those as soon as it gets back because I'm not beating up my newly sealed tanks($1500-2000).  Oh and had to do ADS-B out upgrade.  That was $2k for the skybeacon.  All of this to say, my first year of ownership cost me $12k and this year is forecast to be another $12k and that's not including the normal LOP list of items: Fuel gauges, compass light not working, comm2 radio failed, temp gauge not working, etc, etc, etc.  In the first two years, I will have spent more on the ownership costs than I did on the purchase.  And that doesn't include any nice to have upgrades like a GPS or upgraded autopilot.  Oh and don't forget normal inspections: transponder, annual, etc.  Those always sneak up on you.

Do I regret it, heck no.  I love my plane.  But I do have a love hate relationship with her most days. I love flying her, but hate what she does to my wallet.  When I finally getting my instrument rating out of the way, I'm going to love her a whole lot more.  I cancel a lot of trips now due to weather because being a younger guy (compared to the mooneyspace population) and I don't want to call out of work on a Monday becuase it's cloudy. 

Just remember, in general flying is a hobby of pasion.  If anyone here tells you they fly because it's cheaper or makes their life easier is lying through their teeth.  Just make sure you have the budget set right and you'll be fine.

I wish I didn't under stand this.  

[Sabremech]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

And airports also have lots of guys/girls young and old, either wishing they could afford to fly, or trying to find a way to build hours. 

I hope that if I'm ever in a situation where my plane isn't flying, that I'll have the sense to make it available to be flown by some such person. They pay the difference to be named on the insurance, pay a dry rate, or pay for everything and fly it like they own it. That way if I'm ever back in a position to fly, it's still in good shape and ready to go. 

I like owning my plane without a partner. But that's because I can afford the time and the $$ to fly in excess of 200 hours per year. If I ever got down to less then 100 hours per year, I hope I'd have the sense to take on a partner or two. 

Keep the plane flying, maintain it, and keep it up to date on everything.

Where are the (lots of) guys/girls, young and old either wishing they could afford to fly or trying to find a way to build hours? They’re not at my airport or any near me that I’ve seen. The heyday for small GA has long peaked. 

Being an a A&P/IA, I’m reluctant to just let anyone fly my airplane. I did that for one month on my previous airplane and other pilots will just ‘use’ your airplane and not take care of it anywhere close to the level I expect. It’s more likely that when you're back In the position to fly again, your airplane will be in a sad state and need quite a bit of maintenance to get it back to how you remember it. 

I also like owning my airplane without a partner whether it flies much or not. No one else I’ve found will take care of my bird like I do. I’m well below 100 hours per year and am quite fine with that and have no interest in other people keeping my aircraft active. 

An airplane can be pickled for long term storage and brought back to active with minimal maintenance. I brought an airplane back up to airworthy from being pickled for almost 19 years and it’s been flying great for the last 8 years now. 

Mine will be for sale later this year or I might part it out depending on what is less grief. 

David

[gsxrpilot]

50 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

Being an a A&P/IA,

That's all you have to say... it also puts you in a different position than the rest of us with different abilities.

Also you evidently aren't looking for those who want to fly but don't have the resources or access. 

Here in Austin we're flying hundreds of Young Eagles every year out of about six different airports. We have an active FaceBook page for those wanting to fly. I post every time I'm going out just to fly for fun, or to fly formation offering my right seat. We have a couple of STEM magnet schools (public schools) in the area with Aviation programs. We invite those kids to fly and the instructors out to fly as well. We've also worked out a program with a local middle school with a population that is 95% free lunches, to use our airplanes as incentives teachers can use with their kids. It's all done under the umbrella of EAA and Young Eagles to cover liability. I can name three kids here in Austin who were dreaming of flying just a few years ago, we took them flying, and today they are flying right seat corporate jets and King Air's as Commercial Pilots. There are lots of kids and adults who would love to be flying but just can't afford it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to give away my airplane just so someone less privileged than I, can fly. For now I'll take them flying every chance I get. 

But I'd sooner toss the keys to some young pilot trying to build hours, rather than let my airplane rot into the ramp like the other Mooney at my field. 

[HawkGT]

As a new pilot looking to build hours and experience in all things aviation, I would love to find someone who would partner/mentor me.  I can go buy a Mooney and learn the hard (i.e. expensive) way to own my first airplane or i could find a mutually beneficaial relationship with someone who isnt flying their plane but wants to stay involved in aviation.  My uninformed guess is there are more new pilots who would be interested in this type of arrangement than owners willing to allow a low time pilot fly their pride and joy. I hope someone will prove me wrong.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Hawk...

Sometimes it helps if you make it easy for other people to help you out.

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KJYO

Somebody might know somebody, but if they don’t know the Secret code for Leesburg, how are they going to help you out? 

For a second piece of advice... look up the cost of insurance for a new guy flying a Mooney... all things you may want to take into consideration... great for building your long term plans.

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard Hawk...

Sometimes it helps if you make it easy for other people to help you out.

https://www.airnav.com/airport/KJYO

Somebody might know somebody, but if they don’t know the Secret code for Leesburg, how are they going to help you out? 

Best regards,

-a-

Says the man using NJ as his location ;-)

Just teasing... of course if you'd get more specific, you could be on my MooneySpace Map :-)

[carusoam]

That goes back a while... when my plane was outside for a year or two...

One of these days, i’m Going to update it’s location info... and fly more often...

I probably looked up Hawk’s home drome thinking he may be around NJ.  

Best regards,

-a-

[HawkGT]

Fair enough and thanks for the link.  I will also point out i have found a fellow MooneySpacer, is that a word, at my local airport and he has been extremely helpful in offering advice.  I just like the ideas posted here on keeping planes flying and helping new pilots.   i have called about two local non-mooney bulletin board fractual ownership postings and neither seemed very interested selling, let alone selling and mentoring.

[carusoam]

For brevity...  MSer works...

-a-

[Hank]

13 minutes ago, HawkGT said:

Fair enough and thanks for the link.  I will also point out i have found a fellow MooneySpacer, is that a word, at my local airport and he has been extremely helpful in offering advice.  I just like the ideas posted here on keeping planes flying and helping new pilots.   i have called about two local non-mooney bulletin board fractual ownership postings and neither seemed very interested selling, let alone selling and mentoring.

 

6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

For brevity...  MSer works...

Mooneyspacer is fine. MSer is fine.

Just don't call me a "Spacer!"  

[Marauder]

Says the man using NJ as his location ;-)
Just teasing... of course if you'd get more specific, you could be on my MooneySpace Map :-)

Anthony must be in a witness protection program. I thought everyone knew where he was based. One day I may ask you to look up where I flew on FlightAware and you’ll know.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[ragedracer1977]

12 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I hope you're right but statistically speaking, I stand by "you ain't seen nothin' yet."

I bought a very well maintained C model.  The nicest one I’d seen on the market.  I’ve still spent in the neighborhood of $30k on it (excluding fuel) in the 2 years and 400 hours I’ve been flying it.  Granted, a hefty portion of that was upgrades I chose to do (upgraded leather front seats, yokes, avionics, etc) but even a good example sucks up money.

[Hank]

What seems to get so many people is the "while you're in there" effect . . . .

I bought a top-of-the-line C near the top of the pre-Obama airplane value crash. Mynfirst several years totalled nothing but consumables:  fuel, oil, filters, tires, batteries, ELT batteries. Oh, and the half-price G430 WAAS upgrade, when I patched up, cleaned and repainted the interior (that I had to remove to run new coax to the roof antenna). And a vacuum pump.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Hank

[Sabremech]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

That's all you have to say... it also puts you in a different position than the rest of us with different abilities.

Also you evidently aren't looking for those who want to fly but don't have the resources or access. 

Here in Austin we're flying hundreds of Young Eagles every year out of about six different airports. We have an active FaceBook page for those wanting to fly. I post every time I'm going out just to fly for fun, or to fly formation offering my right seat. We have a couple of STEM magnet schools (public schools) in the area with Aviation programs. We invite those kids to fly and the instructors out to fly as well. We've also worked out a program with a local middle school with a population that is 95% free lunches, to use our airplanes as incentives teachers can use with their kids. It's all done under the umbrella of EAA and Young Eagles to cover liability. I can name three kids here in Austin who were dreaming of flying just a few years ago, we took them flying, and today they are flying right seat corporate jets and King Air's as Commercial Pilots. There are lots of kids and adults who would love to be flying but just can't afford it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to give away my airplane just so someone less privileged than I, can fly. For now I'll take them flying every chance I get. 

But I'd sooner toss the keys to some young pilot trying to build hours, rather than let my airplane rot into the ramp like the other Mooney at my field. 

Hi Paul,

I’m looking to help our youth become A&P’s. There’s plenty of ways and resources to become a pilot but not nearly enough to become an A&P. More than 60% of A&P schools have shut down. The real crisis is not a pilot shortage but the mechanic shortage. Everyone will start to feel that soon if not already feeling it. 

We’ve reached out to the local schools here to try and get the youth involved but for me personally, only in regards to aviation maintenance. 

I have my replacement in A&P school right now and we also found a place for him to intern while going to school. My goal is to try to get more people interested in maintenance.

David