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Hambo

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Hi everyone, been lurking around here for the last couple days and using the search function pretty extensively. But now it's time to get some opinions from the community.

I'm a fairly new PPL (~90hrs). I came across a Mooney the other day that sort of piqued my interest. It's a '63 with about 5400 TTAF and 1500 SMOH with a new prop. I think it can be had for a pretty good deal <$20k. But here is the back story. It has been out of annual for a couple years. A Dr owned it for awhile and when he died it was donated to a school that never opened. The plane sat for a few years and another guy bought it. It sat for another year and he forgot he had bought the plane. He got a ferry permit and had a Mooney pilot fly it about 65nm to a local airfield where it has sat for another year. Now I understand from my searching that there are few flags here. First would be the engine. I would need to have someone pull the jugs and check the cams to see what kind of shape they are in. Next I would have to have an annual done. I'm debating on trying to get the current owner to go in half on an annual and if I don't like the results I just wouldn't buy. This would basically be the same cost as a good PPI. The other thing is, as it's sat for awhile I would certainly get the spar inspected along with tubes, landing gear, other common problem areas. I did notice today that where the fuel selector is on the floor, it was full of water but I guess that doesn't mean much. It does have the stc's for fuel bladders and shoulder harnesses. One of the tanks MAY have a leak. So based off of your experiences, does this sound like something even worth looking into or am I mostly going to run into problems that pile up quickly?

 

Sidenote, the plane was mostly outside for the last few years it's sat. It's an extremely cold climate in the winter and can get rainy in the summer/fall.

 

 

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Consider this one only...

1 - if you are also an A&P looking for a project

2 - if your budget is multiples of the asking price

Which really only makes number 1 a factor. If the budget is multiples of the asking price there are better offerings available. If your budget is 20k I'd save awhile or perhaps consider a less costly solution in which to train.

just free thoughts,

Patrick

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Looking at the numbers you are sharing with us, I would say stay away. You will most likely need a overhaul, if not now in two or three years. 

 

I am also inclined to believe that you will find many other little and not so little squawks. They will increase your purchase price... 

There are other nice M20C around 

 

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There's nothing quite as expensive as a cheap airplane. Since you're new around here, let me just mention that I've got a list. It goes back only five years. In that time, 10 different people have come to this forum and told us how they found just a steal of a deal on a Mooney. The story is always the same. In each case it's been sitting a while, but it's such a good deal. 

In ten of these cases, by the time the plane was airworthy, they'd spent more than 50% over the cost of what they could have bought the best/most expensive of that model for sale. The buyer thought they were getting a good deal and in each case it ended up costing way more then if they'd just bought a good, top of the line example of the Mooney.

Granted there are two examples out of the last five years that have worked out ok. But in one of those two instances, it took over a year and a half of work by the owner before it was ready to fly. It was painful to follow along.

Don't do it, walk away, find a good one.

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Welcome aboard

There are many threads on bringing back a seldom used airplane that has sat quite a bit in the last few years.  Search for these topics and go into the situation with your eyes open.  Hope you will  not spend a lot but expect and be prepared you will have to spend a lot.

Know you will need to upgrade to ADSB out if it has not already been done.  An M20- C model can be a good time builder and to work on you IR.  Lack of an autopilot or GPS is not a show stopper to get your IR.

Have a good pre purchase inspection, PPI, done focusing on air frame corrosion.  I you have a good air frame the rest is just cosmetics and money.  There are likely to be many small gremlins lurking in the plane that are waiting to get evicted but if you enjoy woring on things and can get an A&P (certified mechanic) to work with you you can lean a lot about your plane while keeping it flying.

good luck and safe flying

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You do PPI for an expensive asset because you are trying to protect your asset.   A PPI cost the same for a cheap asset as for an expensive asset so the value is not as good for a cheap asset. 

The part out value for this one is probably about $12-15K.  I would check for corrosion on the spar and cage and then fly it till it dies.  You can make your money back parting it out.

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You would have to get this airplane for practically free, under 5000.  The seller would probably agree to it if he/she were smart.

Personally I would run away from it.  My C was activily flying and based in a dry climate and I had to put a ton of money into it.  I have it perfectly dialed in now but it has taken a lot of time and money to do that.  

You are probably looking at 30k just to make it fairly safe.

good luck

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3 minutes ago, Yetti said:

You do PPI for an expensive asset because you are trying to protect your asset.   A PPI cost the same for a cheap asset as for an expensive asset so the value is not as good for a cheap asset. 

The part out value for this one is probably about $12-15K. 

You mean liability.

Part out value is a bit high.  Where will it be stored while parting out and what about the time and labor to remove parts and ship them etc....the seller should take 5000 and be happy.

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I’ll chime in on this, as a “new” Mooney owner. 

Found THE plane I wanted. A ‘74F, 70nm from where I live. Hardly flown over the past 17 years. Price was good. 

Had all the panels taken off and looked in the engine. It was spotless for a 750 hour engine (dry climate here, minimal moisture). After 2 offers, they accepted. 

Month 2 of owning- fuel servo kicks it -$3k. Month after that, starter goes $1500. Now, a minor electric flap actuator issue. 

All items that are wear and tear, but you just never know. Have at least another $20k ready to spend, and you might still have some for fuel when it’s ready to fly. 

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Wow, thanks for all the great replies. I have always heard this forum is a great place to come for answers and now I can see why. I think I'll heed the advice of this thread and stay away. If I was already an A&P I would probably look into it a little more. I really like Mooney's and would love to own one one day but I guess that I'll just be a little patient and keep my eyes peeled. Thanks again for all the advice!

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4 hours ago, GLJA said:

I’ll chime in on this, as a “new” Mooney owner. Found THE plane I wanted. A ‘74F, 70nm from where I live. Hardly flown over the past 17 years. Price was good. Had all the panels taken off and looked in the engine. It was spotless for a 750 hour engine (dry climate here, minimal moisture). After 2 offers, they accepted. Month 2 of owning- fuel servo kicks it -$3k. Month after that, starter goes $1500. Now, a minor electric flap actuator issue. 

I'm afraid that "you ain't seen nothin yet" as far as unexpected expenses. Looks like we have another one for your list, Paul :(

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Hopefully someone can buy this plane for a fair value (likely salvage value) and save it. A plane that doesn't fly regularly is likely not very well maintained and needs some help and care to be safe again. 

Many owners looking get out from under planes like this (not flown and likely poorly maintained) seem to be very ill informed... or looking to outright take advantage of a buyer that doesn't know any better.

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I think a lot of people are in the pre ‘08 mindset. When I started flying airplanes appreciated to some extent. Now that there are that many fewer pilots and that many more derelicts, aircraft aren’t appreciating like they once did. The airframes are not becoming more valuable, but everything that touches them has. It used to be if you redid an engine you’d see the money when you went to sell, not anymore.

Folks just don’t realize it costs more to repair their derelects than said derelicts are worth. The situation is untenable for maintain vintage airframes.  The most cost effective way to own aircraft is to salvage them when one of their expensive systems breaks.  Just move onto the next airframe.

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2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The only problem with this otherwise very sound purchasing advise is that if everyone follows it there will soon be very few vintage Mooneys left flying.  It is inevitable, I suppose, and already happening at a fairly brisk pace, I think.  

Jim

I'll agree with you 100%. But the blame isn't with buyers who won't over pay for these airplanes, it's with the owners who fail to maintain the airplane, and then refuse to sell until it's too late.

Maintain your Mooney and fly your Mooney. And when you can't, sell/give it to someone who will. And by "you" I mean all of us who care about the breed.

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Nobody here has seen that airplane and nobody here REALLY knows the answer.  If the other party is ok with paying for half the annual, and it goes well, why not?  Worst case sceneario as you posted it is it goes poorly and you walk away with whatever you have into the annual at that point.

 

It's worth the gamble.  Anything that has mentioned here that it was made sound like went out because it was sitting, has the same likelihood of going out in a flying airplane.  Airplanes are expensive, if the bones are good, and it's what you say it is, it is worth the look.

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3 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

Nobody here has seen that airplane and nobody here REALLY knows the answer. 

100% agree that nobody here really knows the condition of the plane. That said, the OP gave enough important insight about the recent past to share some recommendations. Nobody wants another name to be added to Paul's running list of very similar stories.

Once the plane begins to fly again regularly... the bugs from not being flown will come out. A PPI or a successful Annual cannot serve as a substitute to proper upkeep.

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We see this time after time on MS. It seems to defy all logic, that a basically sound airframe can have a negative value (except when parted out). But it also seems it is very true. Some planes, even if you got them free, would cost more to bring back to airworthy than the value of the repaired plane. I think it is partly because of the cost of parts, and possibly something to do with labor costs, but for our purposes, we just have to accept this is the way it is.

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9 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I'm afraid that "you ain't seen nothin yet" as far as unexpected expenses. Looks like we have another one for your list, Paul :(

I don’t think so. I’ve had two AME’s now look at it. It’s in good shape. I knew going in, there would be issues. It was all in the budget, just all came a lot faster than I’d preferred to have. 

 

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I have a question, when it comes to price is there a price god that says mooney x is only worth y?

i thought that was a mechanism of the market?  if this mooney + repairs say overhaul cost 40k isnt' that what it's worth?  the hell with some guy saying it's worth less eventually the supply of cheap planes will be gone and that 40k will seem like a steal.

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