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Flying in the rain...


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11 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

I have a great C model like yours, but how kick ass is our IFR platform when one of our engines decides to quit?

 

11 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I guess that would depend on if it was his engine or yours that decided to quit. Either way, someone might have a bad day. 

My DPE who was just getting ready to retire from the airlines sad in his younger days he would fly single engine IFR all the time. As he got older and more experienced he decided that punching up through or coming down through layer was fine, but extended time IMC in single engine wasn't something he did anymore.

How bad the day is when my  engine fails in IMC is detail specific and not amenable to generalizations. Losing the engine in IMC at 7000 feet with bases at 3000 may be much better than losing the engine VFR at 3000, which is where I routinely get around locally. With a proficient pilot and good backup systems in the aircraft, the the first scenario gives much more time and distance to get down safely and create a good outcome. By contrast, flying over low IMC as far as the eye can see is a daunting prospect not to be taken lightly.  Regardless, very rarely is the single engine a critical part of lethal accident chains that start in IMC.

How it goes after the engine fails in IMC depends on altitude, the bases, the nearest VMC, other weather factors, the terrain,  nearby airports and  approaches, and backup systems installed to help in absence of vac and alternator. And of course pilot proficiency and judgement are major factors.  We are all taught to consider these factors in the go-no go decision, and the equation is largely the same for any piston single.  But among the low cost piston singles, the vintage Mooneys really do shine for their handling  as an IMC platform - that's why I bought one, and it's turned out to offer great utility by being a comfortable place to spend extended time in IMC.

Everyone has to make their own judgement regarding how their proficiency, systems, and risk tolerance interface with the innate limitations of a single engine. That equation is complex and can't be summed up with sentiments like "it's just a lawnmower with wings"  "IFR in a single is only good for punching through thin layers" "one shouldn't fly through rain because rain means IMC."  I find these unhelpful.

Edited by DXB
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37 minutes ago, DXB said:

Losing the engine in IMC at 7000 feet with bases at 3000 may be much better than losing the engine VFR at 3000, which is where I routinely get around locally.

True....But in general when we, should I write I, speak of IMC it usually means lower than 3000.  

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On 2/2/2019 at 6:08 PM, FastTex said:

How concerned are you about flying in the rain? I'm talking light rain and not a thunderstorm. While planning a flight for tomorrow I have a 40% chances of rain, wind is ok and cloud base is forecasted @5000' which is plenty even to stay VFR for where I need to fly. I have not been in the rain much except for a few drops here and there. I have been always told that strong rain can damage the paint, etc...

 

It's the only time my plane gets washed!  

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A few things to consider...

1) Air intake systems changed... when the air filter got moved from the front of the cowl... this gave added options for separating out water and minimizing blockage by ice....

2) Have a strong plan B for when the engine croaks... the Plan A vacuum pump is attached to the engine... if you should decide to stop the engine for better glide... remember what AI device you are going to be scanning as primary... confirm your vac level is still in the green if using the vac powered AI...

3) Alt air systems are there for a reason... even the C has a good one, originally...

4) prop rpm is the key to making vac... the engine doesn’t need to be supplying power...

5) If water ingestion kills the engine... it will come back to life when the water is removed.

  • use alt air...
  • Change tanks? In the event water has some how entered a tank....

6) Low IMC... adds to the dimension of risk...  you get a certain amount of time to reach an open field between breaking out of the clouds, identify a field, prep and get to it, finish the job...  the lower the cloud base, generally the less time you are going to have...

7) how much speed to carry while in the clouds, if you aren’t near an airport.... more may be better than less...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or cfi...

Best regards,

-a-

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9 minutes ago, carusoam said:

A few things to consider...

1) Air intake systems changed... when the air filter got moved from the front of the cowl... this gave added options for separating out water and minimizing blockage by ice....

Did the pre-J Mooney's have a manual alternate air intake instead of the automatic one?

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Yes... Carb heat for the M20C opens a separate air intake inside the cowl...

See what the Fs and early Js used... as it may have varied over the years...

The Os have an automated gate held together with a magnet... a separate manual control inside the cabin pulls the magnet open...

Know what you have, know that it is working... @Hyett6420 Andrew wrote a bunch about his experience flying over the North Sea with ice covering AL’s air intake... tough time to find out about your alt air system...

PP thoughts only...

-a-

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Hey wait a minute what happened?  I was looking for Gene Kelly and Debby Reynolds in a new movie:

"Flying in the Rain":D

 

 

Back on topic Rain no problem I have been in some pretty heavy rain with water leaking in because it will find a way in.  Convective activity now that you need to watch as well as ice but down here in the flat lander south ice is less of an issue but not gone totally.

 

 

225px-Singing_in_the_rain_poster.jpg

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5 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

If I was concerned about flying in the rain in the UK, i would never ever be able to get off the ground.  I once picked my daughter up form Newcastle to take her home to London and we flew in rain all the way, her comment "dad it looks really weird looking down on rain!".  Rain is not an issue if you are instrument current, keep an eye on the temperatures outside, if it gets close to 4C you are potentially entering icing territory so be VERY aware of your options.  First option is ALWAYS climb, then if that does not work, turn 180 or 90 degrees.  Icing is quite often local.  

Can you elaborate on the “first option is always climb” part

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8 minutes ago, DXB said:

Can you elaborate on the “first option is always climb” part

climb above the icing to colder air where the ice won't form or your above the cloud layer. this is not always an option on non turbo'd aircraft. 

Brian

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1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:
1 hour ago, orionflt said:

climb above the icing to colder air where the ice won't form or your above the cloud layer. this is not always an option on non turbo'd aircraft. 

Brian

That's for the lucky bastards who have turbocharged motors :P

While we're on the topic of flying in rain, VFR in rain with good visibility is actually the only time I've experienced ice. Two months ago, I was vfr at 1C OAT when I blundered into an unforecast patch of light rain at 3000ft.  I was under a 4000ft cloud deck that coincided with the freezing level and guided my decision to go vfr. There was a widespread icing Airmet to the surface.  Oh, and it was at nightfall so I never knew visually if the bit of light green appearing on my ads-b display ahead was going to be real precip or not. I needed to get to Boston after work for a meeting the next day, and flying in IMC a fair amount the previous summer had made me less afraid of the dark. It was stupid not to take the train.

Going up, down, or sideways when picking up ice in rain at near freezing temps seems like a situation-specific and aircraft systems-dependent decision.  I'm pretty sure climbing would have done nothing good in my situation. I deviated right to get out of the rain and also avoid terrain while I descended to 2000 to get in warmer air. The descent also let me duck under the NYC Bravo and put me on a heading to Morristown NJ where I planned to land.  By the time I got close to that delta, almost all the ice had shed and there was no more precip showing up on ADS-b, so I flew uneventfully to Boston instead.  In retrospect it was never that much ice - I saw no obvious degradation in performance and heard no vibration from the prop.  Forward visibility through the windscreen was impaired briefly but cleared immediately in warmer air.  But having had no experience with ice, it was utterly terrifying, and fear could have easily made me do something stupid that I would never do when calm. 

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Freezing rain is no joke in any of our Mooneys.  

With TKS primed early and pumps running on high most of the leading edge remained clear the only time I encountered light freezing rain in the Ovation. 

Climbing above ice is hampered by the need to keep airspeed up: In the FIKI Ovation the published ice penetration speed is 120 KIAS minimum.  

The C and E don’t have an icing penetration speed but the same “need for speed” applies to them in ice.  

I know from personal experience that a E at 10,000’ MSL carrying a trace of ice won’t climb at all, at any airspeed.

 

 

Edited by Jerry 5TJ
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6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

OK why climb when you are picking up Ice when the logical thing in your brain says descend to warmer air.  Well the Aviation Safety Institute says otherwise and so i investigated and they are correct. The logic is this, if you are in icing, then you need to get out, also note that icing is quite often VERY localised, so climbing up a few thousand feet, (4 mins or so)  will get you to dryer air where there is no ice.  Furthermore you have gained height and height is your BEST friend f you are in icing.  Say you descend to that warmer air, but find there is none (a temp inversion perhaps)  and you are still picking up ice, then now you have a problem, your plane is heavier, it wont climb so well and that ground is getting closer.  

Climb ALWAYS, declare an emergency ALWAYS, Turn 90 degrees or 180 if it is VERY severe, but definitely climb.

Watch the videos on Youtube, they are very enlightening.

Andrew

Although there are situations where it makes sense to climb first (e.g. one is just below the cloud tops at the first sign of ice, or a big temp inversion at a frontal boundary) the concept of climbing no matter what still eludes me.  Can you point out the Air Safety Institute video you are talking about? Is it on the list on this page?

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/air-safety-institute/safety-spotlights/icing-and-cold-weather-ops

Unfortunately a few of the links are dead.

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On 2/2/2019 at 9:23 PM, AlexLev said:

The problem with rain when you're VFR-only is that sometimes visibilities can get obscured. The rain itself isn't concerning, but the rain turning a VFR day into an un forecast IFR one is a real possibility. It could also be fine with the rain coming from a higher level stratus cloud and not obscuring visibilities significantly.

There is some visibility deterioration in heavy rain. I have flown in very heavy rain that pretty much eliminated forward visibility completely.   Visibility out the side windows was still adequate for aircraft control. I have never been in rain that was heavy enough to produce IMC like conditions in the cockpit. There is the problem limited forward visibility facilitating an accidental entry into actual IMC.

Edited by Shadrach
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14 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

i cant see the video i watched inn this lot.  it was a few years ago and took two aeroplanes flying the same route, one Turbo charged with de-ice and one no along a route and described the options both had.  Ill try to find it but it was a while ago.  It was there that they said climb first "while you still can".  The 180 and 90 rule was also in that video.

The logic of the climb is that 1.  you get to dryer air, so it should stop the ice build up  2. it gives you height which is an advantage at all times.  HOWEVER if the IC build up is SO fast, ie freezing rain, turn around and get the hell out FAST!

Andrew

My primary CFI stressed if you hit ice, climb first because if ice cintinues to build you soon won't be able to.

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