b2002 Posted January 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 1 minute ago, flight2000 said: One more thing for the kit bag while you're shopping. Make sure the engine is the -AF1B or "wet head" version. The early -AF1A model in the M20M TLS had a problem burning up cylinders (along with the Beech Duke and a few other aircraft that used the same engine). Most have been converted already, but there are a few hold outs floating around out there and it's not a cheap conversion. That's an added cost if you snag one that hasn't had it done yet. It's not mandatory, but I wouldn't want one that hadn't been done. Brian Thanks Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b2002 Posted January 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 25 minutes ago, Danb said: PTW great when the polar vortex is over I’m at KILG within shouting distance is you would like to check out a like new BRAVOGX I’ve had since basically new. 200 knots, 1000+ mile range 1040 useful load what’s not to like, unless your like the growing group busting on Mooneys I might take you up on that. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 Sorry to be so late to the party @Yetti I'd be recommending a FIKI 252 but then he mentioned the two teenage girls. You really want a 252 Encore with FIKI... but good luck finding one. There were only a few of them ever made, but if you could find one for sale, it would be square in your budget and have better useful load and cheaper maintenance than a Bravo. It also cruises just a few knots slower than a Bravo on quite a bit less fuel. Another option is to find a FIKI 252 and convert it to an Encore. That will give you a bit more useful load. Expect the conversion to be in the $10K to $15K range. 252's are not very plentiful either and finding one with FIKI won't be easy. I expect $180K would buy the nicest one you can find. But if you find a good one, you'll have one of the most efficient certified, four seat, piston singles ever to fly. The TSIO360 Conti's have a bad reputation for eating cylinders. But I've found that the more you know about engine management, the longer they seem to run. I'm at 1500 hours on all original cylinders. I have a friend who's just about to get his engine overhauled and he's at 2200 hours. So it's not a given that you'll need a top at 1000 hrs. I have a non-FIKI 252 and love it. For two of us and the large dog, it's a wonderful airplane. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 30, 2019 Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 Oops. Sorry. Late to the party. Chairman Powell was speaking... (good news... interest rates should be staying Lowa Falonga... This should help the Mooney buyer that needs a loan) Be nice to the Brand B flyers... Some people can’t decide what they want to fly... If you want... Speed Efficiency Safety Most weather capable, Single engine, factory built... Go Mooney... If Speed is the stronger desire, but efficiency is still important... Go Long Body... If speed and most weather capability are the drivers... Go Turbo Long Body... The Most capable Mooneys have some impressive after market instrument panels... The rest are details to be checked. What prop you have is pretty far down the list.... Given the budget, the reality is going to have some compromise... Having 310 hp requires more than two blades... Flying in the FLs get what is proven to work... As far as engine longevity goes... it isn’t brand management... it is engine management... the power is in YOUR hands. Ovations can go to TBO without needing cylinders... pilot controllable... Bravos and Acclaims may need cylinders at the halfway point... I would want to do this, because speed and selective maintenance go together... Now if you think a Brand B doesn’t have these engine challenges... Keep both eyes open, visit BT... rejoice... Don’t by Stuff because it is popular... buy long term stuff because it meets expectations, for decades... For shopping, visit AAA... https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1 The idea of buying an expensive plane from an individual sounds like an artificial limitation... unless you are buying a premium plane... and you are paying a premium anyway... Ken is our resident private plane buyer with the most personal experience buying planes... averaging a plane each year or two... has a lot of flight experience including being a CFI... But has a main job outside of aviation... Brian went from a small Mooney to a Beech single, and recently went twin... tons of aviation centered experience Scott... just got shunned... Usually we discuss the mission a pilot has... experience of the pilot is important... where his future is... This thread started with budget, and what can I get.... (Typical Brand B discussion) I would go back to stating the mission first... changing planes annually can get expensive... not having the experience can be terribly dangerous... Lets spend the OP’s money wisely... safely, efficiently, and... quickly! See if 201er can light off the new fly-in season... b2002 (sounds like a BMWer?) The NJMP is a group of Mooney pilots that does a fair amount of flying in your area... Welcome aboard! MS has many residents... Most are avid speed and efficiency plane owners... Safety of flight is everything! Join the conversation, add some of your experience, get some additional experience while you are here. Don’t get shunned... Don’t get me wrong, my Acclaim TopProp is important... just number 11) on my top 10 list... Go O1! And then add sauce!!! Best regards, -a- 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b2002 Posted January 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2019 Thanks for all the replies today. I have to sign off for a while, just got called in to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, flight2000 said: One more thing for the kit bag while you're shopping. Make sure the engine is the -AF1B or "wet head" version. The early -AF1A model in the M20M TLS had a problem burning up cylinders (along with the Beech Duke and a few other aircraft that used the same engine). Most have been converted already, but there are a few hold outs floating around out there and it's not a cheap conversion. That's an added cost if you snag one that hasn't had it done yet. It's not mandatory, but I wouldn't want one that hadn't been done. Brian I think I converted the last -AF1A in the wild to an -AF1B. Lycoming didn't know of any others out there. If there are, about the only way to do it now is just wait til it needs cylinders and then order an overhauled or rebuilt -AF1B and they will take the -AF1A as a core for it. I happened to find a Bravo owner who got the kit from Lycoming 20 years ago and put it on the shelf and ended up swapping engines so the conversion never got done. I bought the kit from him and then located cylinders and other miscellaneous items. The -B (Bravo) conversion makes a difference in managing the CHT's but the big advantage is cylinder longevity. The wet head cylinders have oil lines that cool around the exhaust valve guides and wick away the heat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 8 hours ago, flight2000 said: Make sure the engine is the -AF1B or "wet head" version. The early -AF1A model in the M20M TLS had a problem burning up cylinders (along with the Beech Duke and a few other aircraft that used the same engine). The Mooney TLS (aka Bravo after the conversion) has a turbo Lycoming 540. The Beech Duke (and 56TC Baron and Mooney M22) have a turbo Lycoming 541. That's a very different engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 Just out of curiosity what is the typical useful load of a FIKI Bravo? Mine is non FIKI and has about 955 or so. I imagine if I added FIKI ( something I have thought about but not seriously looked into yet) it would reduce that by around 100 lbs or so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flight2000 Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 6 hours ago, KLRDMD said: The Mooney TLS (aka Bravo after the conversion) has a turbo Lycoming 540. The Beech Duke (and 56TC Baron and Mooney M22) have a turbo Lycoming 541. That's a very different engine. That's what I get for reading a source and trusting it...thanks AOPA.... Did Lycoming have the same issues with the 541 and do the same type of conversion? The article mention Lycoming learned from the Duke engines and applied the same to the TLS motors but didn't mention the specific model. I made a bad connection assuming they were the same engines. Thanks for the correction Ken. Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowflyin Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Bravoman said: Just out of curiosity what is the typical useful load of a FIKI Bravo? Mine is non FIKI and has about 955 or so. I imagine if I added FIKI ( something I have thought about but not seriously looked into yet) it would reduce that by around 100 lbs or so? I'd think it would be a much lower weight penalty to go from inadvertent to FIKI. All I know is what I've read from other MS threads. They seem to say redundant pumps, and a heated stall vane are the additional requirements. Hopefully someone can chime in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 I'd think it would be a much lower weight penalty to go from inadvertent to FIKI. All I know is what I've read from other MS threads. They seem to say redundant pumps, and a heated stall vane are the additional requirements. Hopefully someone can chime in. Mooney FIKI version: https://www.caviceprotection.com/products-services/ice-protection-systems/mooney-m20-fikiLooks like 109 pounds with full fluid. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowflyin Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Marauder said: Mooney FIKI version: https://www.caviceprotection.com/products-services/ice-protection-systems/mooney-m20-fiki Looks like 109 pounds with full fluid. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro I read Bravoman's post to say he had Inadvertent/Non FIKI TKS. Not sure if that's correct. If so- Inadvertent is 92 pounds. So that's a 17 pound additional weight penalty. Still more than I would have expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milotron Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 35 minutes ago, slowflyin said: I read Bravoman's post to say he had Inadvertent/Non FIKI TKS. Not sure if that's correct. If so- Inadvertent is 92 pounds. So that's a 17 pound additional weight penalty. Still more than I would have expected. AFAIK...Might be about right. The control panel is slightly different; second pump; second windshield pump; some extra plumbing and solenoids for it all; plus heated stall vane and associated controls and wiring. The reservoir volume is the same, and the specs and coverage off the weeping panels are also the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 I read Bravoman's post to say he had Inadvertent/Non FIKI TKS. Not sure if that's correct. If so- Inadvertent is 92 pounds. So that's a 17 pound additional weight penalty. Still more than I would have expected. I assume that’s with tanks full, so that’s what with empty tanks, 30-40? Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, slowflyin said: I read Bravoman's post to say he had Inadvertent/Non FIKI TKS. Not sure if that's correct. If so- Inadvertent is 92 pounds. So that's a 17 pound additional weight penalty. Still more than I would have expected. No, I have no Ice protection currently other than prop deice and pitot heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 4 hours ago, flight2000 said: That's what I get for reading a source and trusting it...thanks AOPA.... Did Lycoming have the same issues with the 541 and do the same type of conversion? The article mention Lycoming learned from the Duke engines and applied the same to the TLS motors but didn't mention the specific model. I made a bad connection assuming they were the same engines. Thanks for the correction Ken. Brian No other airplane uses either the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A or the TIO-540-AF1B - only the M20M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Marauder said: Mooney FIKI version: https://www.caviceprotection.com/products-services/ice-protection-systems/mooney-m20-fiki Looks like 109 pounds with full fluid. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Thanks, that’s about what I figured. With full fuel in my long range tanks I’d have to lose a few lbs to be legal! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 Thanks, that’s about what I figured. With full fuel in my long range tanks I’d have to lose a few lbs to be legal! Look like the 6.3 gallons to fill it weigh 58 pounds. The minimum dispatch is 3.8 gallons. I don’t know what the minimum dispatch means, but it sounds like that is the minimum amount you can have in the system to fly?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bravoman Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 18 minutes ago, Marauder said: Look like the 6.3 gallons to fill it weigh 58 pounds. The minimum dispatch is 3.8 gallons. I don’t know what the minimum dispatch means, but it sounds like that is the minimum amount you can have in the system to fly? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro I think that is probably correct. Given that the system costs north of $60,000 and I live in the south, I probably will never pull the trigger on it. However, it sure would be nice on those occasions when I see Ice forming on the wings. If I had it to do over again, I probably would have made FIKI more of a priority back five years ago when I was shopping. It just was really not on my radar screen, since I really did not have the 360 panoramic perspective on what it is like to fly as high as the bravo takes you so far is atmospheric conditions are concerned. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowflyin Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said: I assume that’s with tanks full, so that’s what with empty tanks, 30-40? Tom Fluid is 55 pounds. 37 Pounds Non-FIKI empty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 41 minutes ago, Marauder said: Look like the 6.3 gallons to fill it weigh 58 pounds. The minimum dispatch is 3.8 gallons. I don’t know what the minimum dispatch means, but it sounds like that is the minimum amount you can have in the system to fly? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro I’m pretty sure that’s for dispatching into KI conditions. Normally a gallon or so is fine during the summer non mountain flying. Similar to LR tanks you don’t always have to have them topped off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danb Posted January 31, 2019 Report Share Posted January 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Bravoman said: I think that is probably correct. Given that the system costs north of $60,000 and I live in the south, I probably will never pull the trigger on it. However, it sure would be nice on those occasions when I see Ice forming on the wings. If I had it to do over again, I probably would have made FIKI more of a priority back five years ago when I was shopping. It just was really not on my radar screen, since I really did not have the 360 panoramic perspective on what it is like to fly as high as the bravo takes you so far is atmospheric conditions are concerned. BM, I think the same way, I’d probably make it more of a priority if starting over again, being semiretired I don’t have a schedule or time frame to follow so it’s not that big of a deal, I’d rather have the turbo although both would be better. I’ve had my worse ice encounters in the summer trying to jump over storms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, Marauder said: Look like the 6.3 gallons to fill it weigh 58 pounds. The minimum dispatch is 3.8 gallons. I don’t know what the minimum dispatch means, but it sounds like that is the minimum amount you can have in the system to fly? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro That’s minimum to declare yourself legal for FIKI flight, yes. I’m willing to bet most FIKI TKS tanks are close to empty in the summer time though. dont get me started on the whole idea of a FIKI qualification.... kind of like a helmet law to me... some states make it a legal requirement, some don’t... I’d rather ever rider has the freedom to make their own decision. If one is so unconcerned about their safety as to not wear a helmet.. or launch/fly into unsafe conditions... they will ultimately be held accountable for their own actions. I don’t think the government *needs* to step in to make those decisions... I wonder what CAV is paying in liability insurance... their product must work: they haven’t been sued into oblivion (yet), which is shocking for an aviation company! Edited February 1, 2019 by M016576 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: No other airplane uses either the Lycoming TIO-540-AF1A or the TIO-540-AF1B - only the M20M. True, but other airplanes use a Lycoming TSIO-540 variant. The TSIO-540-J2BD is put in Machen Bonanzas, Cessna Turbostream 310s and Cessna Javelin P210s, each at 350 HP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted February 1, 2019 Report Share Posted February 1, 2019 Just now, KLRDMD said: True, but other airplanes use a Lycoming TSIO-540 variant. The TSIO-540-J2BD is put in Machen Bonanzas, Cessna Turbostream 310s and Cessna Javelin P210s, each at 350 HP. The bravo has an engine that normally put out 260 hp and they increased it to 270hp. The engines that have 350hp, even tho they are the same CC, are completely different, and are rated to that much higher standard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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