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Is it ever too cold to fly?


NJMac

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On 1/29/2019 at 10:33 AM, BradB said:

Yes.  There is.   I believe it measures from the right tank.     Some of the fuel to the engine runs through a heat exchanger with the oil and is return to both of the tanks.  The mechanism activates automatically below freezing.  

Brad

NICE, useful information. All models?

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I have over 500,000 BTU available in a T-Hanger and beer.  It is never too cold to hanger fly.  I have no desire to push the plane out when it is much below 30 and a lot less desire to push it back in below 30.  

I have flown a fair amount in the FL’s and in North Dakota cold.  Breath equals ice and my heater is awful.  As I age my desire to fly is more centered around things I want to do versus things I need to do.  

So for me anything below about 30-40 is bleh unless it involves flying to KEYW or MWCR.  

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Minnesota weather is brutal. My last 3 days have consisted of:

1. Drink several cups of coffee in the morning and look out the window. Surf on Mooneyspace.com.

2. Drink beer in the afternoon and look out the window. Surf on Mooneysace.com.

3. Drink beer or wine in the evening, can’t look out the window because it’s too dark. Watch TV and surf on Mooneyspace.com. 

4. Go to bed.

Thank goodness for retirement.

It’s supposed to be 60 degrees warmer on Saturday than it was this morning. If I make it that long I hope to go flying!

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19 minutes ago, MinneMooney said:

Minnesota weather is brutal. My last 3 days have consisted of:

1. Drink several cups of coffee in the morning and look out the window. Surf on Mooneyspace.com.

2. Drink beer in the afternoon and look out the window. Surf on Mooneysace.com.

3. Drink beer or wine in the evening, can’t look out the window because it’s too dark. Watch TV and surf on Mooneyspace.com. 

4. Go to bed.

Thank goodness for retirement.

It’s supposed to be 60 degrees warmer on Saturday than it was this morning. If I make it that long I hope to go flying!

Your approach is critically flawed.   It neglects entirely all the good aviation channels on YouTube :-) :-)

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On 1/28/2019 at 1:03 PM, Marauder said:

 


Got a better one. On the job in my company car driving down the Thruway headed towards Rochester. It was in the middle of a blizzard. My co-worker and I were doing a steady 20 MPH in the blinding snow. The snow got heavier and we slowed down even more. We saw nothing but a wall of white. Something didn’t look right because we sometimes would see this pinkish hue.

The snow let up a bit and we then realized we were literally following 10 feet behind a tractor trailer. The pinkish hue we saw periodically was one of his tail lights showing through the packed snow that covered the entire rear of the trailer.

Fun times...


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I don't remember if it was Buffalo or Rochester, but Roadway Freight recruited heavily from my Central NY college.  The brought me out there for an interview, and what stays with me to this day is the image of the employee on the modified fork lift whose whole job it was to push snow back out of the terminal when the lake effect really got wound up.

-de

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another factor in the fly/don't fly decision when it's really cold is the condition of the runways and taxiways/ramps on both ends of the trip.  Really cold wx winds up with really bad coditions at non Class-D airports.  My home drome has been basically unusable since this time last week when the freezing rain coated everything.  Add some compacted snow and persistent cold, and you've got a recipe for a really bad FICON number.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I finally was able to make the flight yesterday. Their C was nice and warm the whole way, took my winter jacket off and was comfortable in the cabin.

My E just wouldn't warm up. I ran it about 50 LOP and the CHTs were still sooo cold. Is this just now it goes when it's so darn cold? 92284ff99204f5e31165b57948c8d928.jpga8d74b20a3ea9da15de15e260091a6a8.jpg

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I finally was able to make the flight yesterday. Their C was nice and warm the whole way, took my winter jacket off and was comfortable in the cabin.

My E just wouldn't warm up. I ran it about 50 LOP and the CHTs were still sooo cold. Is this just now it goes when it's so darn cold? 92284ff99204f5e31165b57948c8d928.jpga8d74b20a3ea9da15de15e260091a6a8.jpg

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Looking at the rest of your temps, I wonder if your cowl flaps are staying open. My IO-360 will run cold (high 200s) in the temp range your showing.


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Looking at the rest of your temps, I wonder if your cowl flaps are staying open. My IO-360 will run cold (high 200s) in the temp range your showing.


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I had them in the closed position but that doesn't mean they were actually closed. I'll take a look

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There is a temperature where the lead additive may not convert to its finished product...

That temp is written around here somewhere...

When the cooling air is so good... I ran close to peak at 10+k’ and CHTs were high 200s... so I didn't need to know what that lower temp limit was...

If you are going to run 50°F LOP and have even lower CHTs, you may want to be familiar with the temp related to LL conversion...

Unfortunately, I don’t remember where to start to look that one up...

Best regards,

-a-

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I bought some 12V electric blankets for my kids when driving up to the snow. They work great and I’m sure they would be just as good in the plane. Draw very little power and get nice and warm.
https://www.trillww.com/carcozy.php
My wife and i are thinking of flying this coming weekend to ATL, wx permitting. Even going south a few blankets need to be in play. She would LOVE that since she is always under a heated blanket when on the couch at home. Thanks!

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3 hours ago, NJMac said:

I finally was able to make the flight yesterday. Their C was nice and warm the whole way, took my winter jacket off and was comfortable in the cabin.

My E just wouldn't warm up. I ran it about 50 LOP and the CHTs were still sooo cold. Is this just now it goes when it's so darn cold? 92284ff99204f5e31165b57948c8d928.jpga8d74b20a3ea9da15de15e260091a6a8.jpg

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The power of the Mighty C! I've always been toasty warm in mine, but have never flown with ground temps below 0°F. At 8°F, she climbed like the proverbial homesick angel, and during my many evening IFR lessons in a WV winter, we were both (CFII & I) quite comfortable.

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7 hours ago, NJMac said:

I finally was able to make the flight yesterday. Their C was nice and warm the whole way, took my winter jacket off and was comfortable in the cabin.

My E just wouldn't warm up. I ran it about 50 LOP and the CHTs were still sooo cold. Is this just now it goes when it's so darn cold? 92284ff99204f5e31165b57948c8d928.jpga8d74b20a3ea9da15de15e260091a6a8.jpg

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Do you have a factory exhaust? My F model will cook people out of the cabin. The trouble used to be keeping the rear passengers warm without cooking the front seat occupants. That problem has been remedied by insulating the cabin from floor to ceiling. CHTs have nothing to do with heater output. Also, there is no reason to run that far (50) LOP at 65%. It’s sub optimal for efficiency as well as lead scavenging and has no up side. I run the same engine that you do. 50LOP will keep it in the low 300s...on the deck (1500’)...WOT...in August. 50LOP at 65% is safe, but it’s far from optimal.

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Do you have a factory exhaust? My F model will cook people out of the cabin. The trouble used to be keeping the rear passengers warm without cooking the front seat occupants. That problem has been remedied by insulating the cabin from floor to ceiling. CHTs have nothing to do with heater output. Also, there is no reason to run that far (50) LOP at 65%. It’s sub optimal for efficiency as well as lead scavenging and has no up side. I run the same engine that you do. 50LOP will keep it in the low 300s...on the deck (1500’)...WOT...in August. 50LOP at 65% is safe, but it’s far from optimal.
Yes factory exhaust. Just redid all the insulation in the cabin with mooney factory official stuff.

Didnt realize that 50 LOP was ever a bad thing. From my limited knowledge on the subject, i understood 100 ROP or 50 LOP was my target.

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17 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Yes factory exhaust. Just redid all the insulation in the cabin with mooney factory official stuff.

Didnt realize that 50 LOP was ever a bad thing. From my limited knowledge on the subject, i understood 100 ROP or 50 LOP was my target.

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Me, too.  That’s right where I usually run: 65%, 50 LOP, around 8.5-9.0 gph.  I curious what’s so bad about that...???

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Slow.... is the bad part...

So if you like super efficiency, 50°F LOP, is leaving hp on the table.... flying slowly improves efficiency....

If you are at low altitudes you might be doing this intentionally staying at and below 65%hp...

As you get above 7 or 8k’ and MP limits your hp, and you run 50°F... you start running out of power to go fast...

I prefer running close to peak at high altitudes....

Key thing is to know how you are measuring 65%bhp... to stay out of the red box... then decide how efficiently you want to proceed...

Also keep in mind... (I believe) Ross is referring to engine’s thermodynamic efficiency.... which is going away, further from peak... compressing extra air to not get anything out of it....

The airplanes drag reduction at slower speeds improves your overall efficiency....

PP thoughts only, not a thermodynamics guy...

Best regards,

-a-

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Thanks.  I knew I was giving up speed, but like the better overall efficiency.  Trade off that I accept.

A little confused about staying out of the ‘red-box’ at only 65% power; I didn’t think that was an issue at that low power as long as CHTs are not excessive.

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4 hours ago, NJMac said:

Yes factory exhaust. Just redid all the insulation in the cabin with mooney factory official stuff.

Didnt realize that 50 LOP was ever a bad thing. From my limited knowledge on the subject, i understood 100 ROP or 50 LOP was my target.

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Didn’t say bad, I said sub optimal. At 65% hp you can run any mixture you like and have no fear of harming your engine. 50LOP is a very conservative mixture setting at 65%hp. Ethylene debromide loses its effectiveness as a lead scavenging agent as CHTs drop towards the mid 200s. Run for hours in the 220s and one or more plugs may experience lead fowling. There’s a whole mixture spectrum to choose from. Why limit yourself to just two settings?  

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3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Didn’t say bad, I said sub optimal. At 65% hp you can run any mixture you like and have no fear of harming your engine. 50LOP is a very conservative mixture setting at 65%hp. Ethylene debromide loses its effectiveness as a lead scavenging agent as CHTs drop towards the mid 200s. Run for hours in the 220s and one or more plugs may experience lead fowling. There’s a whole mixture spectrum to choose from. Why limit yourself to just two settings?  

That always puzzled me.  Why would lead scavengers care what your CHT is?  Don't they just care what your combustion temperature is?

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