Is it ever too cold to fly?

[David_H]

1 minute ago, NJMac said:

Thanks to all so far for the feedback.  I'll do my best to recap what I think I've learned.

1) Flying when its under (insert personal minimum) adds increased, unnecessary risk.

2) Plan for the worst case.  I'm wondering if I don't wear my carhartt bibs preemptively, if I go.  Wonder how a balaclava would fit under a headset? 

3) Manage MP thru throttle regulation so as to not cause undue wear on the engine... or is it a motor?  lol, sorry

4) Make sure the fuel doesn't gell.  Ive had a front end loader do that to me last year.  It sucks.

I was planning on going both ways non stop so I didnt have to worry about preheating the engine after a fuel stop.  Smart or not?  Preflight would be in a heated hangar on both ends for sure.  No way Im doing that in the cold.  

Still unsure if I should try this.  Blue skies are hard for me to turn down knowing how crummy its been so far this winter. 

I can understand it being hard to turn down blue skies when the winter hasn't given much decent flying weather in the Midwest.

With that said, I'll vote to stay home Wednesday.

I just can't think of a good enough reason to launch into that forecast cold. That kind of cold strongly encourages "Hurry up and get-it-done-itus" with everything you do while exposed to cold temperature. I know... that's not a real word, but it's a very real feeling.

I would imagine that the plane owner (if you are still in the loaner plane) would rather wait a few more days... but that's my opinion and I usually tend to err on the side of safety.  

[tigers2007]

I’d consider grabbing a 50+ long foot long cold-wx rated extension cord (preferably Flexilla) so you can plug it in while visiting places. That has worked out with me a few times in the past. Some of us also schlep our own portable generators to independently power the heaters.


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[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, tigers2007 said:

I’d consider grabbing a 50+ long foot long cold-wx rated extension cord (preferably Flexilla) so you can plug it in while visiting places. That has worked out with me a few times in the past. Some of us also schlep our own portable generators to independently power the heaters.


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...recently at KBAF when I went on just such a day over Thanksgiving, with my power cord and trust cowl blanket, I parked next to a wall with an outlet that they use for just such a purpose.  I pre-arranged that by phone call two days after landing - a few hours before departure that I would call and they would plug me in.  Well when I got there ...it was plugged in but engine was stone cold.  Turns out that the specific wall outlet was dead.  Bugger!  So I switched outlets (tested with my iPhone charger) - and waited like an hour for it to heat up to something reasonable - from ambient of maybe 25F.

[Marauder]

Also, people spoke around the topic of survival equipment. Years ago living in Buffalo through the Blizzard of ‘77, I learned the importance of being prepared to deal with getting stranded.

I built and carry a survival pack that has the essentials for surviving an off airport landing. Depending on the time of year or what I will be flying over, it will be reconfigured.






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[neilpilot]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

Years ago living in Buffalo through the Blizzard of ‘77

I have not-so-fond memories of that storm.  It took me 2 days to get to my home in Amherst from work in Niagara Falls.  When I was trying to finish my PPL at a flying club, with 2 aircraft tied down outside at IAG, I'd sometimes spend an hour clearing snow and preheating with our vintage army tent heater, and then just give up and drive home.  My license took an extra few months to complete due to our outdoor tie down.  

[tigers2007]

YooperRocketMan could probably fill in more info but we had two planes go down in the area on 1/19. One of them looked like a Piper Tri-Pacer that made an emergency landing on a nearby frozen lake where it also flipped. I heard that the guy barely had any cell signal and coincidently landed on a lake with no inhabitants due to being in a designated wilderness area. He’d probably be a goner if his cell didn’t get through and didn’t have emergency provisions. It’s even more of a shame when I hear stories about people succumbing to the environment when they were so (unknowingly) close to civilization. This weekend we had a local university student get caught in the woods without provisions only for a brief period of time and didn’t make it. His body was found 100yds from a highway.

I keep cold wx survival kits in my cars and I want to build a bigger one for my plane.


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[MinneMooney]

With -50 F wind chill they are saying exposed skin will have frostbite in 5 minutes. I’d wait. 

[yvesg]

The coldest ground temperature I flew at was -30 C. Thorough pre-heat (35000 BTU propane) of the engine of course. I did not pre-heat the interior so on take off some dials were erratic but cannot remember which (that was around 20 years ago).  They settled after 3- 5 minutes. The cabin heater was OK for the front pilot and co pilot but it was cold for the kids sitting in the back.

I flew Saturday when it was -20 C approx. and no issues.

Yves

[neilpilot]

13 minutes ago, yvesg said:

I did not pre-heat the interior so on take off some dials were erratic but cannot remember which (that was around 20 years ago).

Probably not an issue so long as you don't start the gyros cold very often.  I assume everyone realizes that cabin preheat is for more than personal comfort.  Repeated cold starts will result in premature wear and gyro failure.

[Marauder]

I have not-so-fond memories of that storm.  It took me 2 days to get to my home in Amherst from work in Niagara Falls.  When I was trying to finish my PPL at a flying club, with 2 aircraft tied down outside at IAG, I'd sometimes spend an hour clearing snow and preheating with our vintage army tent heater, and then just give up and drive home.  My license took an extra few months to complete due to our outdoor tie down.  

I lived in West Seneca at the time. The proverbial snow belt area. The winds and the drifts were unbelievable. I remember driving down south of Buffalo on the Thruway and hit a whiteout. Had to stop on the highway because I just couldn’t see anything. When the wind subsided, I was 10 feet from hitting a 15 foot high drift.


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[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Also, people spoke around the topic of survival equipment. Years ago living in Buffalo through the Blizzard of ‘77, I learned the importance of being prepared to deal with getting stranded.

I built and carry a survival pack that has the essentials for surviving an off airport landing. Depending on the time of year or what I will be flying over, it will be reconfigured.






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Would love to see a packing list for this kit. And what size pelican case is that?

[neilpilot]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I lived in West Seneca at the time. The proverbial snow belt area. The winds and the drifts were unbelievable. I remember driving down south of Buffalo on the Thruway and hit a whiteout. Had to stop on the highway because I just couldn’t see anything. When the wind subsided, I was 10 feet from hitting a 15 foot high drift.

Seems we're now trading Buffalo weather stories.  I decided to get my ppl in 1971 shortly after I moved to WNY in part so I could fly back to NJ to visit family.  Of course the weather was often too bad, so I drove.  Once the snow was so fierce I couldn't see and almost pulled over, but was passed by a plow and was able to then drive by following his strobe light.  After awhile he slowed down and then stopped.  It was only then that I realized I had followed him to an exit on the Thruway and we had pulled into a parking lot.  My first IFR flight drive from Buffalo to NJ.

[Marauder]

Seems we're now trading Buffalo weather stories.  I decided to get my ppl in 1971 shortly after I moved to WNY in part so I could fly back to NJ to visit family.  Of course the weather was often too bad, so I drove.  Once the snow was so fierce I couldn't see and almost pulled over, but was passed by a plow and was able to then drive by following his strobe light.  After awhile he slowed down and then stopped.  It was only then that I realized I had followed him to an exit on the Thruway and we had pulled into a parking lot.  My first IFR flight drive from Buffalo to NJ.

Got a better one. On the job in my company car driving down the Thruway headed towards Rochester. It was in the middle of a blizzard. My co-worker and I were doing a steady 20 MPH in the blinding snow. The snow got heavier and we slowed down even more. We saw nothing but a wall of white. Something didn’t look right because we sometimes would see this pinkish hue.

The snow let up a bit and we then realized we were literally following 10 feet behind a tractor trailer. The pinkish hue we saw periodically was one of his tail lights showing through the packed snow that covered the entire rear of the trailer.

Fun times...


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[Marauder]

Would love to see a packing list for this kit. And what size pelican case is that?

I’ll pull the summary when I get home. I think it is a 1510. There is a new “lite” version of the Pelican cases that are a pound or two lighter. I weigh everything after I load it and it is usually around 20 pounds.


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[carusoam]

The blizzard of 77... shut down rt 128 a major artery around Boston packed with cars and people... CO poisoning became a known issue.

Some Cars got ‘removed’ by a car crushing machine... a grab and go kind of thing...

 

Some Things we learned... including 

1) CO poisoning is real...

2) Lake effect snow can be an incredible amount... and last for days... and stop everything for days...

3) in the middle of nowhere cell signal can be zero on the ground...

4) This polar vortex is moving pretty quickly... waiting a day or two may make a lot of sense.

5) Nothing like get-there-itis when cold soaking at 10k’. Hats and gloves for indoor use. A second pair for being outside...

6) same two pair advice for flying and hiking... flying shoes are sometimes different than hiking in snow shoes...

7) Super cold air doesn’t usually carry a lot Of moisture...

8) The off airport kit can be a brilliant idea...

9) Chemical pocket and shoe heaters seem to be pretty popular around NJ... available at Costco.... probably some iron filings that oxidize in the presence of air....

10) extreme weather can make entire cities not work...

 

And for people with Buffalo experience... do you remember the great black-out of 1965...?

 

PP thoughts only, not a cold expert...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

And for people with Buffalo experience... do you remember the great black-out of 1965...?
 
PP thoughts only, not a cold expert...
Best regards,
-a-

Or more commonly known in Buffalo as “the great baby boom of 1966”? If I recall correctly it was a lot more widespread than just Buffalo.

The one Blackout I do remember well was the great ice storm of 1976. It knocked out miles and miles of power lines.



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[Oldguy]

The Catholic Diocese in Buffalo was a client of mile and they related some of the folks had to walk a few blocks to get to their house. The said it was not a real problem, as they just climbed out the window onto the snow and left.

But they were on the third floor.

[steingar]

We had construction equipment buried on our street in '77.  Damn that was a lot of snow.

[Marauder]

The Catholic Diocese in Buffalo was a client of mile and they related some of the folks had to walk a few blocks to get to their house. The said it was not a real problem, as they just climbed out the window onto the snow and left.
But they were on the third floor.

I remember they also issued a warning that people under 150 should not be outside. Not a problem for most Buffalonians. Where do you think I get all of my pictures? Just open up the scrapbook and there they are.


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[0TreeLemur]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

The Vortex is coming to the Deep South, too. Forecasters can't decide if we're gonna get snow or not, but Atlanta and Birmingham are both bracing for some. I'm in annual so flying is not an option. 

@Fred₂O check your heat box on the muffler and condition of the hoses. I flew my C through 7 winters in OH and WV and couldn't run Full Cabin Heat for very long before pushing it halfway in and pulling some Cabin Air to cool it off. Too hard taking off a coat while flying, but it was unzipped with scarf and gloves removed. 

We checked muffler shroud, heat box and hoses at annual last month.  Adjusted muffler shroud.  All is fine.   She puts out a lot of heat through that itty-bitty little four-louver vent in the center console.  The real problem is that she also leaks cold air like a sieve through fissures unsealed (and unknown).  Your C must be a lot more airtight than ours is.

[NJMac]

Saturday looks partly cloudy the whole way.  Just wondering how cloudy partly is.  Might need to take an instrument pilot with me to get to vfr on top. I like mid 30s better than -20.  

[NJMac]

Just chatted with an instructor Im going to be studying with and he brought up the idea of how cold and brittle all the rubber and plastic pieces will be with the cold temps. All good reasons why this trip is il advised. I had been wanting to make the trip direct in one day there and back like we dropped it off. I don't think I can be so choosy so I'll keep looking at other options.

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[BradB]

@NJMac sounds like you have gotten a lot of good advice.   I’ll add one more response (although it is pretty irrelevant) to your original question, “Is it ever too cold to fly?”

I flew at FL230 and 250 in my Mooney several times.   Where I live it can be -45C or worse in the winter up there.  It was cold inside because I had a leaky door seal.     In the PA-46T, the temperature is actually more of a concern.   The operating limit in the plane for the fuel temp is -34C.    Jet-A has some dissolved water in it all the time.    The Meridian requires the Prist additive all the time to reduce the freezing point.     Below freezing, some heated fuel is returned to to tanks to keep them warmer than ambient in the FL’s.  Mine can keep a 7 degree differential.    On Friday, flying to Boston, I had to decend from FL270 to FL250 when the fuel temp hit -34C (outside was -44).    Decending a couple thousand gave me the few degrees that I needed.

So, not really relevant to your situation, but it can get too cold.   @Jerry 5TJ , Can the JetProp keep better than a 7 degree differential?

 

Brad

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by BradB

[aviatoreb]

39 minutes ago, BradB said:

@NJMac sounds like you have gotten a lot of good advice.   I’ll add one more response (although it is pretty irrelevant) to your original question, “Is it ever too cold to fly?”

I flew at FL230 and 250 in my Mooney several times.   Where I live it can be -45C or worse in the winter up there.  It was cold inside because I had a leaky door seal.     In the PA-46T, the temperature is actually more of a concern.   The operating limit in the plane for the fuel temp is -34C.    Jet-A has some dissolved water in it all the time.    The Meridian requires the Prist additive all the time to reduce the freezing point.     Below freezing, some heated fuel is returned to to tanks to keep them warmer than ambient in the FL’s.  Mine can keep a 7 degree differential.    On Friday, flying to Boston, I had to decend from FL270 to FL250 when the fuel temp hit -34C (outside was -44).    Decending a couple thousand gave me the few degrees that I needed.

So, not really relevant to your situation, but it can get too cold.   @Jerry 5TJ , Can the JetProp keep better than a 7 degree differential?

 

Brad

 

So is there a fuel temp probe?

[neilpilot]

If you were last fueled at much warmer temps, then the soluble water in your wings can form very fine ice needles as the sudden cold wave takes effect.  Will you be flying in very cold conditions?  To prevent those ice crystals from collecting on your fuel filter or possibly fouling an injector consider adding a small dose of isopropyl alcohol to each tank.