Is it ever too cold to fly?

[NJMac]

 

The team at weep no more has been so gracious to me. While they did the tanks on my E over Christmas and New Year's, they let me take their C home. It's been 3 weeks or so that the wx has prevented me from trading our planes out once they finished.

 

I'm looking at possibly making the trek on this upcoming Wednesday. High temp at ground level here in Dayton will be 0. Highs in Willmar are said to be negative 19 on the ground. Negative 19 high for the day. Ugh.

 

We have a fleet of 30 something trucks at work and when it gets cold our trucks start breaking for no other reason than it being so cold. Most memorable was a rear axle shaft in a 3500 work truck a few years back. Just snapped because ambient temps were so cold.

 

Knowing it drops 2 degrees Celsius per 1000 ft, even staying low 4-5k msl will make it stupid cold.

 

Do I need to worry like I am about so low temps and flying? There hasnt been a day that passes that the wx would have worked to make the trip and I don't want to let this one pass if flying in these cold temps are ok. Thanks team

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by NJMac

[warren.huisman]

I am also planning to fly there on Wednesday (LJF actually, but it's close).  Generally, airplanes like the cold but I have to admit I am a little worried that the oil temps will be too low.  Flying yesterday only yielded 170 deg - is that a problem?

[alextstone]

I'm no expert but the thing that would worry me the most would be the engine (and oil) temp on startup.  A thorough engine preheat would be a must for each leg of the trip.

[MinneMooney]

I live in the Twin Cities and would not travel here this Wednesday. They are predicting cold temperatures that we haven’t seen for 20 years with windchills below -50F! Expecting widespread school and business closures. Thankfully it should be much warmer by next weekend. I would worry about the crankcase breather becoming blocked with ice at those temperatures.

[gsxrpilot]

I've flown in temps where my oil temp never got above 138. I also regularly fly at FL250 or FL260 with temps well into the negative 10's or 20's. I've never seen any ill effects. 

Pre-heating the engine is good though or let it warm up on the ground before taking off. 

[BKlott]

This topic reminds me of stories my Dad told me about flying in the 1940s. He complained about flying his Cub in the Winter in Pennsylvania. There was always plenty of airflow through the cabin with the gaps in the doors and loose fitting windows. The cabin heat came in through a tube into the cockpit. Dad said that if he took off his glove and stuck one finger (all that would fit) into the tube, the tip of his finger might feel a little bit of warmth.

He said that when the Cessna 140 first came out, the fact that the doors closed and sealed tight along with having a cabin heater that actually worked made it a very big improvement over the older light aircraft. Funny how time changes our perspective on things.

[aviatoreb]

20 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've flown in temps where my oil temp never got above 138. I also regularly fly at FL250 or FL260 with temps well into the negative 10's or 20's. I've never seen any ill effects. 

Pre-heating the engine is good though or let it warm up on the ground before taking off. 

But do consider that -20F on the ground is quite something vs --10 or -20 at FL25.

[aviatoreb]

A thought I follow in my flying.  Consider an off field landing when flying in the winter.  Even if it is 10F or 20F consider to bring enough cloths and cold weather gear in case you need to make an off field landing. You don't want to freeze to death waiting even 2 hours for the help to arrive in that best case scenario when you are uninjured and you have a triggered ADSB-GPS-ELT and personal locator beacon to pinpoint your location quickly.  In light clothing, you might not make it in -5F, -10F, -20F...-50F with. wind chill.  I wear enough coats that I would be willing to spend 20-30 min in the environment without suffering (and longer with a bit of suffering) plus I carry sleeping bags, blankets and heck I  throw in my cowl blanket cover which can serve that other survival gear purpose.

That is separate from the airplane.

I flew last week in -5F (on the ground), which is my current limit.  It was -23F (still air) last Tuesday when I wanted to take my wife somewhere, but sunny - I delayed until the temps rose to -5F.  (I think it was 5F for a high that day).

I wouldn't go to Wilmar on Wednesday if it were me.  I picked up my airplane from weapnomore just over 2 years ago on a chilly Jan day - but not THAT cold!

Now you want to see some really cold temps?  REALLY cold.  How is -62F (still wind temp)?  Right now.  But no worry - see there is a warming trend.  Ah - Verkhoyansk, Ru - middle of Siberia.

Edited January 28, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Now you want to see some really cold temps?  REALLY cold.  How is -62F (still wind temp)?  But no worry - see there is a warming trend.  Ah - Verkhoyansk, Ru - middle of Siberia.

Ahh, Verhoyansk!!

A bullet would be so merciful in comparison . . . . .

Edited January 28, 2019 by Hank

[aviatoreb]

Just now, Hank said:

Ahh, Verhoyansk!!

A bullet would be so merciful in comparison . . . . .

Seems like a lovely spot to build a goulag.

[aviatoreb]

Fun facts about avgas.  Freezing point =-58C=-72.4F

[Hank]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Seems like a lovely spot to build a goulag.

The final stages of freezing to death are said to be quite warm and comfortable, too. I'm a Southern boy, I don't even like looking in the freezer for very long, and I'm not inside it, either! After 5 years in Ohio and 9 more in WV, I'm DONE with snow (except it snowed twice last winter here in Lower Alabama, and they're expecting more on Tuesday. The world must be ending.).

[aviatoreb]

15 minutes ago, Hank said:

The final stages of freezing to death are said to be quite warm and comfortable, too. I'm a Southern boy, I don't even like looking in the freezer for very long, and I'm not inside it, either! After 5 years in Ohio and 9 more in WV, I'm DONE with snow (except it snowed twice last winter here in Lower Alabama, and they're expecting more on Tuesday. The world must be ending.).

Snow man with an Alabama accent!

...I've been XC skiing 5 days a week for several weeks now.  Keeps me from getting fat in the winter.  Nothing quite as beautiful-peaceful as a snow woods and all you hear is your own heart beating.  Snow stops all other sounds.  But yeah - 62F is a bit cold even for me.  Mostly I don't xc ski if it is below -5 or -10F. 

Actually - another way around the problem of trying to decide if it is too cold to fly....if it is too cold for you to spend 15 minutes on the tarmac prepping your plane ...or if it is so cold that you are tough and you think you can do it but you end up rushing your check list and maybe miss a step in a hurry to get your engine started... then it is probably too cold to fly.

Also - note - if your tarmac is icy - remember if you are hand pulling your airplane it becomes especially hard to pull with poor footing.  Those spiked shoe covers are nice - but remember to take them off before you climb onto your wing.  I have chains on my aero tow for winter use.

Flying at 5F on a sunny still bright white day is gorgeous and airplane performance is stunning.  Don't go to Minnesota on Wednesday during a polar vortex cold snap with -20F/-50F windchills.  Thats just ugly.

https://www.axios.com/life-threatening-cold-polar-vortex-midwest-weather-dad70dfb-fb02-4cbb-8818-f6e84d364813.html

Edited January 28, 2019 by aviatoreb

[LANCECASPER]

I grew up in Minnesota and learned to fly in North Dakota  and have done my fair share of flying in cold weather. Willmar is in the tropical region of Minnesota - I grew up about 150 miles North of there. In my mid-20's moved to Texas and have been here ever since. There's only one good thing about flying in cold weather - the performance difference with that cold dense air is amazing. However, preflighting, flying in a relatively cold cabin no matter how many layers you have on, and the extra dangers that have been mentioned about exposure makes it not worth it to me. If you're flying with gyros, the noises they make at those temps are unlike anything I've ever heard. My cut-off back then was -20 ambient temp, but now I'd say zero is a more reasonable place to stop.

[DanM20C]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I don't even like looking in the freezer for very long, and I'm not inside it, either!

Hank, the inside of my freezer is significantly warmer than outside my house right now.  I'm not sure why I live here.

I have flown in some stupid cold weather in the past.  With proper preheating the airplanes generally did well in the cold.  As Lance pointed out, If the cockpit isn't' preheated the gyros will make the most awful noise.  It's worse than nails on a chalkboard. 

Two years ago I had an accident that changed the way I thought about cold weather flying.  I now put my limit at 5-10F and daytime only.  Packing warn cloths is important. But in the event of a forced landing there is a good chance for injuries. Injuries that could make it impossible to put on the said clothing.  It's also possible you could be pinned in the airplane or knocked unconscious and several hours from help arriving.  Due to the bulky nature of cold weather gear it's difficult(uncomfortable) to be fully suited up while flying in a GA cockpit. 

I crashed in the dark when that OAT was 5F.  My gloves and hat were on the seat next to me at the start of the flight and nowhere to be found when I came to.  I suspect if it were daytime I would have found them.  I was wearing a sweatshirt and my jacket was in the rear seat along with my Carhartt Bib Overalls(I brought the bib overalls in case of a forced landing).  Luckily I was able to free my self and crawl out of the airplane.  I tried to put on the overalls but was unable to due to my injuries, so I threw my coat on and headed off for help.  By this time my hands were so cold I couldn't zip my jacket up.  I was only exposed to the elements for about 1.5hrs yet I had fairly severe frostbite to my hands.  It was 4 months before I started to regain feeling in any of my fingers and still have some areas that haven't returned.   This was at 5F.  I can't imagine if it would have been -20. 

So I would stay home on Wednesday.  People worry allot about flying over long stretches of water or mts.  But -19F surface temps render the Midwestern terrain just as inhospitable.

Cheers,

Dan

[carusoam]

Winter flying in My M20C...

1) I used 10 - 12k’ a lot for glide range...

2) It leaked cold air everywhere...

3) Heat is hard to come by when the engine is burning that little fuel...

4) Run close to peak to get the highest EGT for the most heat you can get...

5) Be dressed extra warmly, because it is cold inside, wear a winter hat.... (then follow Dan’s advice above)

6) Depending on somebody else’s ship to supply heat... bring your own CO monitor... (more of Dan’s advice. )

7) Taking care of the plane is important, to do that, take care of yourself properly first...

8) Plan a few stops between here and there, take at least one... it is hard to judge how well things are going while flying...

9) Bring extra blankets, food and water... because that’s what we did in our cars too... (Mass)

10) Ground temps have always been above 0°F for me... use caution using FT, with DA below 0,000.  It is possible to create too much ICP leading to a cracked head... Generating more than 100% power feels pretty good, climbing through dense air is great... keeping it to MP settings in the POH is a good idea...

No, it’s not going to be too cold to fly...(unless your fuel turns syrupy... the flap pump might not work so well either )

Yes, you want to be ready for it...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI or mechanic...

Temp outside today in NJ... +51°F... Went for a jog... really a nice day.

Best regards,

-a-

[aaronk25]

4 years ago over Iowa heading home to MN from Florida I froze the oil cooler on my J model. I did not put a strip of aluminum tape over the oil cooler as I normally would due to the warm departure temps.

It was at -38f when the oil went from 164 to 210 then in 2 mins to 220. I got it stopped at 230 by going about 80 lop, and increasing rpms.

Scary deal. At night. That cold and the airports are all IFR, due to ice crystals blowing around. A person could land in a really nice field 1/4 mile from a farm house and freeze to death. My limit is now -20f.


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[Skates97]

4 hours ago, Hank said:

The final stages of freezing to death are said to be quite warm and comfortable, too. I'm a Southern boy, I don't even like looking in the freezer for very long, and I'm not inside it, either! After 5 years in Ohio and 9 more in WV, I'm DONE with snow (except it snowed twice last winter here in Lower Alabama, and they're expecting more on Tuesday. The world must be ending.).

I'm not with you Hank. It was a chilly 60°F this evening so I wasn't as warm as I would like with just a polo shirt.  Saturday getting settled into the new hangar it was too warm, 80°F. 

I've done cold, lived in Alaska, New Jersey, Utah, and Colorado growing up. In Alaska as a kid and in the winter we didn't drive anywhere without couple sleeping bags and other supplies in the vehicle just in case. 

I have a "Diary of a Demented Snow Shoveler" somewhere on my computer. I'll have to find it and post it in that joke thread for all you guys up north. 

[Moh]

Yesterday I canceled my flight as surface temperature was 2c dew m1c and humidity was 80%. I had icing concerns for planed 2500’ AGL (3500’ MSL) flying altitude.


Thank you
Mohamed

[aviatoreb]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

10) Ground temps have always been above 0°F for me... use caution using FT, with DA below 0,000.  It is possible to create too much ICP leading to a cracked head... Generating more than 100% power feels pretty good, climbing through dense air is great... keeping it to MP settings in the POH is a good idea...

Temp outside today in NJ... +51°F... Went for a jog... really a nice day.

Best regards,

-a-

Hi Anthony - your point 10 - something we have discussed before.  Right - as I sit here this morning drinking coffee by the fire, sunshine streaming through, its -18F.  DA is about -5000ft.  When I do fly with significantly DA low altitudes, I do limit manifold pressure on take off.  I don't go firewall forward on the black knob but instead I push it forward with my fingers grasped all the way around the knob so it only goes in about up until the width of my finger.  That gives me about 34 or 35'' instead of 38''.  When it is that cold I am still off the ground awfully quick and climbing awfully quick, and of course there is no problem with cooling due to less than "take-off" MP as there would be in normal temps.  Enjoy your jog.  I think the polar vortex is coming to get you "Southerners" in NJ too during the upcoming days.

[steingar]

It kinda depends.  If I wan too go somewhere I think I'd put up with whatever I have to in order to get going.  If I'm just puttering around I usually don' too it when its in the teens or below.  Just don't want to have to preflight in that kind of cold.

Adding to this I really don't want to wear a big heavy coat in the aircraft.  It can get in the way of the bar.  Chalk one up for the electric gear.

[0TreeLemur]

14 hours ago, NJMac said:

 

The team at weep no more has been so gracious to me. While they did the tanks on my E over Christmas and New Year's, they let me take their C home. It's been 3 weeks or so that the wx has prevented me from trading our planes out once they finished.

I'm looking at possibly making the trek on this upcoming Wednesday. High temp at ground level here in Dayton will be 0. Highs in Willmar are said to be negative 19 on the ground. Negative 19 high for the day. Ugh.

We have a fleet of 30 something trucks at work and when it gets cold our trucks start breaking for no other reason than it being so cold. Most memorable was a rear axle shaft in a 3500 work truck a few years back. Just snapped because ambient temps were so cold.

Knowing it drops 2 degrees Celsius per 1000 ft, even staying low 4-5k msl will make it stupid cold.

Do I need to worry like I am about so low temps and flying? There hasnt been a day that passes that the wx would have worked to make the trip and I don't want to let this one pass if flying in these cold temps are ok. Thanks team

 

 

 

If the heater in your E is like the one in my C, and your ship leaks cabin air like mine does, I'd be worried about keeping yourself warm in those temperatures.   Nothing quite as uncomfortable as being cold and immobile.   I don't know about newer Mooney models, but in our C the  heater does a great job on the pilot's right knee and co-pilots left knee.   The left side of the pilot is in a freezer, as is the right side of the co-pilot.   Anyone in the back seat is in the freezer.   I wouldn't fly in below zero temps in my a/c as a matter of personal safety.   If I had to I would want bunny boots, snow pants, parka, stocking cap, and blankets.

[tigers2007]

I use a Honeywell HCE100B heater resting in the passenger side footwell to keep the instruments heated. It uses 170 watts and I built a thermostatic control (which is only really useful if I didn’t fly until the spring as it’s always too cold during the winter).

I have free electricity in my hangar now but when I move to my new hangar I’ll have to foot the bill. I think it comes to $20/mo even at my crazy high electricity rates where I moved to. Worth every penny keeping the cabin 50+ degrees during the deep freeze.

Honeywell HCE100B Heat Bud Ceramic Heater Black Energy Efficient Space Saving Portable Personal Heater With 2 Heat Settings https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00I4UVGHO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_gOWtCbVY3D9SK




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[Hank]

The Vortex is coming to the Deep South, too. Forecasters can't decide if we're gonna get snow or not, but Atlanta and Birmingham are both bracing for some. I'm in annual so flying is not an option. 

@Fred₂O check your heat box on the muffler and condition of the hoses. I flew my C through 7 winters in OH and WV and couldn't run Full Cabin Heat for very long before pushing it halfway in and pulling some Cabin Air to cool it off. Too hard taking off a coat while flying, but it was unzipped with scarf and gloves removed. 

[NJMac]

Thanks to all so far for the feedback.  I'll do my best to recap what I think I've learned.

1) Flying when its under (insert personal minimum) adds increased, unnecessary risk.

2) Plan for the worst case.  I'm wondering if I don't wear my carhartt bibs preemptively, if I go.  Wonder how a balaclava would fit under a headset? 

3) Manage MP thru throttle regulation so as to not cause undue wear on the engine... or is it a motor?  lol, sorry

4) Make sure the fuel doesn't gell.  Ive had a front end loader do that to me last year.  It sucks.

I was planning on going both ways non stop so I didnt have to worry about preheating the engine after a fuel stop.  Smart or not?  Preflight would be in a heated hangar on both ends for sure.  No way Im doing that in the cold.  

Still unsure if I should try this.  Blue skies are hard for me to turn down knowing how crummy its been so far this winter. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by NJMac