carusoam Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Mission Statement... 1) Give a top 5 or 10 list of what this device needs to do, for YOU 2) are you a fan of big G products, or do you prefer the other guys? 3) are you capital limited, or looking to build a panel in chunks of 10AMU. Both devices do exactly what their sales brochures claim. They can be expanded and linked to other devices... They can sub out the existing devices... Maybe I forgot... Supercop, What are you trying to do? A pair of G5s Does mostly what an Aspen can do.... A pair of Aspens Does a whole lot more... Great conversation that will last all week. Are you looking for the discussion, or were you looking for some insight? What are you trying to achieve? My list would be something like this.... 1) Replace older worn mechanical and vacuum driven devices. 2) A digital AI 3) A digital HSI 4) GPS enabled 5) WAAS source 6) AHARS air data computer and display incorporated 7) Winds component display 8) GPSS connected to my AP 9) DA calculated while on the ground 10) TAS, GS, IAS What does a SuperCop want and need? Hard to work all that into a flowing conversation on a Sunday afternoon... but, hey, Were talking airplanes.... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Vorlon, When you say no back-up AI required.... for a single display Aspen...? Is that a legal issue, or a reality issue...? For most MSers, we are seeing a TC or a separate AI being used as a back-up... (Old/worn TCs are crummy for this) On the legal front, and STC requirements... a particular device may be required... some ESI devices have been used in the past for documentation reasons... Qualifications of all the various back-up devices is ever changing and expanding... Big G prefers to qualify their own stuff first... Go big G, or go other guys, but mixing and matching adds to your personal requirements/capabilities... (your tech skills) Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorlon1 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 I have always been told (by several different avionics shops that for a single Aspen unit, a backup AI is legally required. If this is not so, please tell me. :-) I believe that is why Aspen is making such a big deal of this NOT being required for the A5... With folks making it a point to highlight the upgrade path of the Aspen line, I thought it a good time to ask the question that I've been pondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Once the Aspen max systems come out, then you won't need a backup system anymore. As for the current aspen systems, a backup is required. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the aspen E5 is VFR only, no backup is required, since VFR flying doesn't require an AI in the first place. once you upgrade to the next models, which is IFR approved, you need a backup, since for IFR, an AI is required. When the time comes, I will be doing dual G5's Instead of the aspen, since the aircraft I fly is IFR certified, and if I wanted to keep it IFR certified, I would need to spend considerably more on an aspen system then the G5's.@gsxrpilot is correct that the aspens do offer a lot more than a set of G5's, but his model of aspen is also 2 to 3 times the cost of the set of G5's. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vorlon1 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 9 minutes ago, Niko182 said: Once the Aspen max systems come out, then you won't need a backup system anymore. As for the current aspen systems, a backup is required. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the aspen E5 is VFR only, no backup is required, since VFR flying doesn't require an AI in the first place. once you upgrade to the next models, which is IFR approved, you need a backup, since for IFR, an AI is required. When the time comes, I will be doing dual G5's Instead of the aspen, since the aircraft I fly is IFR certified, and if I wanted to keep it IFR certified, I would need to spend considerably more on an aspen system then the G5's.@gsxrpilot is correct that the aspens do offer a lot more than a set of G5's, but his model of aspen is also 2 to 3 times the cost of the set of G5's. Agree with all of the above. Also, I find it interesting that the screenshot of the Aspen web page does not say anything about the MAX versions as the upgrade path. I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) this is an oversight on their part. Since I also want IFR capability, I think (and for the same money) dual G5's make a lot of sense, and G is selling them as fast as they can make them. They are often back-ordered. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 A couple of clarifications to the Aspen E5 1. The E5 is certified for day/night IFR operations. 2. The E5 has the new high resolution "MAX" screen and processor. 3. The existing Attitude Indicator may be removed (unless it is required for other puposes) 4. Vacuum system in not required by the Aspen E5 and may be removed in accordance with FAA regulations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 24 minutes ago, Niko182 said: Once the Aspen max systems come out, then you won't need a backup system anymore. As for the current aspen systems, a backup is required. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the aspen E5 is VFR only, no backup is required, since VFR flying doesn't require an AI in the first place. once you upgrade to the next models, which is IFR approved, you need a backup, since for IFR, an AI is required. When the time comes, I will be doing dual G5's Instead of the aspen, since the aircraft I fly is IFR certified, and if I wanted to keep it IFR certified, I would need to spend considerably more on an aspen system then the G5's.@gsxrpilot is correct that the aspens do offer a lot more than a set of G5's, but his model of aspen is also 2 to 3 times the cost of the set of G5's. It was my understanding that the Aspen E5 can be used for IFR - you just don't have the nice HSI - it does display CDI and GS however. I also thought the single panel Max pfd still required a backup AI - you have to have the pfd plus the mfd with the extended life battery to alleviate that requirement. So in terms of ifr backup requirement, the Max pro pfd and the E5 pfd would be no different. In isolation as a single install, the dual G5 would seem to have an edge over the E5 by offering a real HSI. However the Aspen offers spectacular upgradability that the dual G5s cannot beyond just the HSI. The Aspen seems very cleverly positioned in the market to force people to have exactly the dilemma that prompted this thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 Just now, DXB said: It was my understanding that the Aspen E5 can be used for IFR - you just don't have the nice HSI - it does display CDI and GS however. I also thought the single panel Max pfd still required a backup AI - you have to have the pfd plus the mfd with the extended life battery to alleviate that requirement. So in terms of ifr backup requirement, the Max pro pfd and the E5 pfd would be no different. In isolation as a single install, the dual G5 would seem to have an edge over the E5 by offering a real HSI. However the Aspen offers spectacular upgradability that the dual G5s cannot beyond just the HSI. The Aspen seems very cleverly positioned in the market to force people to have exactly the dilemma that prompted this thread. From my understanding the E5 is not IFR approved. I looked on aspens website regarding the E5, and found no details of it in correlation with IFR. If it is IFR, I think aspen should include that information on the website page. Another possibility is that I'm just an idiot and missed it. Additional info: Just looked again on aspens website and I highly doubt its IFR approved, since no backup is required for a single unit install. also my favorite line on aspens website: "PFD Upgrades Easy and affordable Evolution E5 Non-TSO STC to full TSO Evolution 1000 Pro upgrade" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, DXB said: I also thought the single panel Max pfd still required a backup AI - you have to have the pfd plus the mfd with the extended life battery to alleviate that requirement. The new Max PFD does not require the original AI if it is connected to an IFR approved GPS but the other primary instruments are required. (airspeed, altitude, etc. ) getting the MFD w/EBB allows the removal of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 A couple of clarifications to the Aspen E5 1. The E5 is certified for day/night IFR operations. 2. The E5 has the new high resolution "MAX" screen and processor. 3. The existing Attitude Indicator may be removed (unless it is required for other puposes) 4. Vacuum system in not required by the Aspen E5 and may be removed in accordance with FAA regulations. What about airspeed, altitude, vsi....ie can you get rid of the steam gauges?Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 The other primary "six pack" gauges can be removed with the addition of the MFD w/EBB external battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 48 minutes ago, Niko182 said: From my understanding the E5 is not IFR approved. I looked on aspens website regarding the E5, and found no details of it in correlation with IFR. If it is IFR, I think aspen should include that information on the website page. Another possibility is that I'm just an idiot and missed it. I don't see it either - however it is also not labeled explicitly as a VFR product like their low end pfd in the previous generation, which also didn't display glideslope. I strongly suspect it is legal for IFR so as to compete effectively with the dual G5s as an option for the budget minded instrument pilot. At the same time, VFR pilots pursuing IR and certainly those with the rating will be sorely tempted to give the company thousands in pure profit at a later date for a software upgrade. But I doubt any instrument pilot flying with an HSI now would be willing to give it up and install an E5. The dual G5s clearly have an advantage over the E5 for those folks if they want the cheapest glass solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted January 27, 2019 Report Share Posted January 27, 2019 I don't see it either - however it is also not labeled explicitly as a VFR product like their low end pfd in the previous generation, which also didn't display glideslope. I strongly suspect it is legal for IFR so as to compete effectively with the dual G5s as an option for the budget minded instrument pilot. At the same time, VFR pilots pursuing IR and certainly those with the rating will be sorely tempted to give the company thousands in pure profit at a later date for a software upgrade. But I doubt any instrument pilot flying with an HSI now would be willing to give it up and install an E5. The dual G5s clearly have an advantage over the E5 for those folks if they want the cheapest glass solution. I think Aspen is in a quandary when it comes to the E5. If they added an HSI, it would eat away at their PFD 1000 business and yet it not being there, gives Garmin an edge because it has an HSI. A couple of other points, I don’t believe the G5 comes standard with the magnetometer. It doesn’t look expensive but adds another cost to the bundle. The E5 comes standard with it. The E5 isn’t mentioned specifically as an IFR capable box because I believe they don’t want people selecting it over the PFD 1000. It has the course deviation indicators on the AI for precision approaches and just like those people who have just a mechanical AI, DG and CDI today, it will fly a non-precision on the CDI/DG unit on the bottom.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 The other primary "six pack" gauges can be removed with the addition of the MFD w/EBB external battery. So at that price point, then the TXi becomes an option, with the G5 as the backup.Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 I suspect that there are plenty of Avionics shops that will give incorrect answers/advice on Aspens because they just don't know any better... and don't care to learn because they'd rather sell Garmin. Garmin is an extremely Channel friendly company. They won't sell to anyone who's not a Garmin Certified installer and won't talk to anyone unless you're a Garmin certified shop. Aspen, on the other hand will sell through dealers such as AvionicSource who is not an installer. Aspen tech support will also talk to us mortals as well. It makes sense that avionics shops prefer to sell Garmin. Based on my conversation with Aspen at Oshkosh... The E5 is certified IFR but without an HSI. Therefore you need a CDI as the Nav head. The PFD Max will not require a standby AI, Turn Coordinator, or DG The MFD Max with Battery will eliminate the remainder steam gauges such as ASI and Altimeter. From conversations with Garmin at Osh... The G5 can replace the AI in any panel, no standby required. A second G5 can replace the DG/HSI in any panel, no standby required. All other steam gauges such as ASI, Altimeter, Turn Coordinator, and VSI must be retained. If the G5 is installed as a Secondary/Standby AI, then the Turn Coordinator can be removed. So the G5 can replace a single instrument, two G5's replace two instruments, etc. An Aspen PFD E5 or MAX can replace four instruments as well as a CDI or two. The Aspen MFD MAX with battery, can replace the remaining two instruments. For a clean but fully redundant panel, an Aspen MAX PFD/MFD combo can't be beat. Even a Garmin G500/G500Txi require stand by instruments in addition and a G5 if driving a Garmin autopilot. For me that's cluttered, complex, and expensive. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 My issue with Aspen is that even after you buy the PFD/MFD Max, you need the EA100 and ACU2 to talk to the KFC 150 autopilots and you still don’t get altitude preselect on the Aspen (right?) so you have to keep your 297B. Can you set your VS on the Aspen and have it control your KFC 150 vertical speed? The autopilot adapter for Garmin G500 will allow me to remove all the autopilot controls and use it for control with the added bonus of all the VNav queues from my GTN. Twin G500 TXi 7” screens with the remote autopilot controls seems the dual MAX equilivent but, again, for more cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve W Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marauder said: A couple of other points, I don’t believe the G5 comes standard with the magnetometer. It doesn’t look expensive but adds another cost to the bundle. The E5 comes standard with it. If you buy the 'G5 HSI' then it comes with the magnetometer, if you get the 'G5 AI' then it doesn't. It looks like the price difference is about $300. But really you'll almost certainly want the GAD 29 to actually navigate with GPS which adds $500, $700(GAD29B ) if you want to use it as a heading bug/GPSS for a legacy autopilot. Edited January 28, 2019 by Steve W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 47 minutes ago, Bryan said: My issue with Aspen is that even after you buy the PFD/MFD Max, you need the EA100 and ACU2 to talk to the KFC 150 autopilots and you still don’t get altitude preselect on the Aspen (right?) so you have to keep your 297B. Can you set your VS on the Aspen and have it control your KFC 150 vertical speed? The autopilot adapter for Garmin G500 will allow me to remove all the autopilot controls and use it for control with the added bonus of all the VNav queues from my GTN. Twin G500 TXi 7” screens with the remote autopilot controls seems the dual MAX equilivent but, again, for more cost. Yes, I believe you are correct. The Aspen will not control the vertical speed or altitude preselect. And yes, you do need the EA100. This is all true regarding the KFC150. I'm more inclined to upgrade the autopilot as well... since we're building a "forever" plane here... Either the Stec 3100 or the AeroCruz predict they'll include vertical speed, and preselect, all controlled by the Aspen without any need for the EA100. Of course, neither is available for the Mooney today... but both are claiming this year. I do like the twin G500TXi screens but not sure of the support for legacy autopilots and the GFC500 autopilot seems to be a step backwards and still requires the G5. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 Agree. It’s just money, right? I find the solution to most aviation problems is more money. The Garmin autopilot adapter, GAD 43e, supports most of the older analog autopilots with features needed for control. I, also, suspect to see the TXi inherit the GFC software requirement without the G5 in the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 I do like the twin G500TXi screens but not sure of the support for legacy autopilots and the GFC500 autopilot seems to be a step backwards and still requires the G5. Twin Aspens are $19000 plus EA100Dual G5s plus 7” TXI with GAD29 would be $16000.To me it depends on autopilot you want, above would give similar functionality, Aspen can add AOA for extra $, but both would allow removal of steam gauges. G5s backup the TXI.Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 I’ll put in my two pennies... The E5 is certified under the same rules as the G5. This means you can remove your AI (and vac system) but the rest of the six pack must remain. The E5 is IFR certified. The E5 cannot be combined with any other Aspen display unless it is upgraded to the pro model. If the EA100 and ACU is added to the E5 it will control BK et al AP’s including flight director functions. I’ve seen these unit sell used for $1300 and $500 region. The max pfd still requires a backup AI, ASI, and altimeter. If the max mfd 1000 is added no backup instruments are needed. If a non max mfd is added you still need a backup AI. @Bryan The 43e will also need a software unlock to utilize the preselect/txi interface. I’d be more inclined to use the 43 and pocket the $3k difference. I adree with @gsxrpilot that saving for a new AP is a good start right now. The 3100 is coming out with a new Aspen interface that will drastically reduce wire connections and increase usability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 3 minutes ago, MIm20c said: The 43e will also need a software unlock to utilize the preselect/txi interface. I’d be more inclined to use the 43 and pocket the $3k difference. Garmin no longer sells the GAD43E without the unlock SD card per there current offerings: $4389. I did confirm with two shops last week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Bryan said: Garmin no longer sells the GAD43E without the unlock SD card per there current offerings: $4389. I did confirm with two shops last week. This is why I went with a NOS 43 for under 1k. With all the new AP head units coming out I don’t see the ROI on the 43e. I would at least confirm with Garmin that the unlock card could be utilized with the aerocruz as well. Edited January 28, 2019 by MIm20c 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 Competition is good! Where is Dynon lately? -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gacoon Posted January 28, 2019 Report Share Posted January 28, 2019 gsxrpilot said: The PFD Max will not require a standby AI, Turn Coordinator, or DG Mlm20c said: The max pfd still requires a backup AI, ASI, and altimeter. So who is right, does the PFD Max require a backup Attitude Indicator, or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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