Advice on this M20C

[carusoam]

Hey Brian, congrats on going twin!

Which engines do you have in the Be95?

Best regards,

-a-

[flight2000]

Just now, carusoam said:

Hey Brian, congrats on going twin!

Which engines do you have in the Be95?

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks Anthony.  O360A1A's....sound familiar....

Brian

[Pal33]

What great comments and feedback, I do appreciate it. They will be useful for any plane that I look at in the future.

I've asked for complete logbook copies as I only have photos of a few recent ones. 

I learned the owner passed away unexpectedly a few months ago, so some of the questions like oil burn or any current issues cannot be answered. One of the logbook pages shows a TOH done a couple hundred hours ago, though no date. Still learning what a TOH means and how that could/should influence the decision. Also the landing gear doughnuts were replaced at last annual, and the fuel tanks resealed in 2016.

I trained in a Cessna 172 so am comfortable with them, but when I look at the prices of a Skyhawk, it seems reasonable to look at other airplanes too. I'm not looking for a project plane, so I think I will continue my search and enjoy the journey. Thanks again.

[flight2000]

4 minutes ago, salty said:

You misunderstand how it works. There are ADs on engine parts that only need to be complied with at overhaul. So....it’s airworthy until you break the case open......... but if you don’t open it up you’re still flying with parts that have ADs on them. That’s one of the reasons I did my overhaul even though the engine was running fine. 

I don't think so, but please show me an example for reference that has an AD, but can wait until the next time the case is split to fix/replace. 

An AD is mandatory compliance either through replacement or repetitive inspections.  This is why Continental received massive push back on the starter gear issue in 2017 when they proposed their Mandatory Service Bulletin for the gear to be turned into an AD.  The AD required an invasive inspection every 100 hours until the gear could be replaced during the next event that split the case (they originally wanted it replaced within 10 hours of operation if I recall correctly).  I've never seen an AD that allows continued operation until the next overhaul.  Mandatory Service Bulletins, however, can go until the next overhaul or case split - unless your in countries like Australia that treats all factory MSB's as equivalent to AD's.  

Brian

[ZuluZulu]

25 minutes ago, Pal33 said:

What great comments and feedback, I do appreciate it. They will be useful for any plane that I look at in the future.

I've asked for complete logbook copies as I only have photos of a few recent ones. 

I learned the owner passed away unexpectedly a few months ago, so some of the questions like oil burn or any current issues cannot be answered. One of the logbook pages shows a TOH done a couple hundred hours ago, though no date. Still learning what a TOH means and how that could/should influence the decision. Also the landing gear doughnuts were replaced at last annual, and the fuel tanks resealed in 2016.

I trained in a Cessna 172 so am comfortable with them, but when I look at the prices of a Skyhawk, it seems reasonable to look at other airplanes too. I'm not looking for a project plane, so I think I will continue my search and enjoy the journey. Thanks again.

Top overhaul can refer to a lot of things, but it usually means replacing or at least repairing all of the cylinders in one job. It probably helped the oil consumption, but it doesnt reset the time before overhaul. 

I think you probably made the right call, especially for your first airplane. 

[Guest]

As an example the oil pump AD on Lycoming has several compliance times.

1) Replace at next engine overhaul (not to exceed  the hours specified, for the particular engine model, in  Textron Lycoming Service Instruction 1009AJ, dated July 1,  1992), at next oil pump removal, or 5 years after the  effective date of this AD, whichever occurs first.

Others like Continental VAR crankshaft replacement are due at overhaul or when next removed.

There are many possibilities.

Clarence

[DXB]

56 minutes ago, Pal33 said:

What great comments and feedback, I do appreciate it. They will be useful for any plane that I look at in the future.

I've asked for complete logbook copies as I only have photos of a few recent ones. 

I learned the owner passed away unexpectedly a few months ago, so some of the questions like oil burn or any current issues cannot be answered. One of the logbook pages shows a TOH done a couple hundred hours ago, though no date. Still learning what a TOH means and how that could/should influence the decision. Also the landing gear doughnuts were replaced at last annual, and the fuel tanks resealed in 2016.

I trained in a Cessna 172 so am comfortable with them, but when I look at the prices of a Skyhawk, it seems reasonable to look at other airplanes too. I'm not looking for a project plane, so I think I will continue my search and enjoy the journey. Thanks again.

Maybe try to gently educate the seller that the plane is only worth half the asking price, and the value is plummeting further every month that it sits. If a non-pilot heir is trying to unload it quickly, maybe they will come to their senses and give you a reasonable deal - unlike pilot owners with sentimental attachments, who seldom come to their senses. If it's a solid airframe, it wouldn't be a bad thing to get a fresh overhaul done up front the way you want it, particularly if you plan to keep it a long time.  But because the panel is pretty mediocre, this plane will never be a great deal even if it costs you 32k, and so you are right to keep looking regardless.  

ZuluZulu is correct about top overhauls - I would add that they contribute very little monetary value to a plane.   It's remarkable that someone spent the money to top overhaul an engine that had gone so long without a major overhaul.

BTW once you are flying your own Mooney, you will feel incredible relief that you didn't buy a 172.  I had a close call like that 4 years ago with a Piper Archer shortly after I finished my PPL in a Warrior ;).

[flight2000]

34 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

As an example the oil pump AD on Lycoming has several compliance times.

1) Replace at next engine overhaul (not to exceed  the hours specified, for the particular engine model, in  Textron Lycoming Service Instruction 1009AJ, dated July 1,  1992), at next oil pump removal, or 5 years after the  effective date of this AD, whichever occurs first.

Others like Continental VAR crankshaft replacement are due at overhaul or when next removed.

There are many possibilities.

Clarence

Thanks Clarence,

I didn't see the oil pump AD in the O360A1A section.  Do you know which AD number that is?  Both that I saw had short compliance timelines. 

Examples like the VAR crank is what spurred my original question.  Does Lycoming upcharge for something that needs to be replaced or is it just done as part of their factory rebuild or overhaul cost?   Continental does not care what crankshaft (or starter gear) is sent in with the core - it's the same price out the door and they replace everything so it's up to date.  Places like Western Skyway's (and other boutique shops) charge for those type replacements.  I had to pay extra for the new starter gear when I used WS's for my IO520 overhaul. 

Edit: I just found another that is tied to the ECi debacle.  The ECi piston connecting rods can go up to 2,000 hours, next overhaul, or removal of cylinder before compliance....

Brian

Edited January 20, 2019 by flight2000

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, flight2000 said:

Thanks Clarence,

I didn't see the oil pump AD in the O360A1A section.  Do you know which AD number that is?  Both that I saw had short compliance timelines. 

Examples like the VAR crank is what spurred my original question.  Does Lycoming upcharge for something that needs to be replaced or is it just done as part of their factory rebuild or overhaul cost?   Continental does not care what crankshaft (or starter gear) is sent in with the core - it's the same price out the door and they replace everything so it's up to date.  Places like Western Skyway's (and other boutique shops) charge for those type replacements.  I had to pay extra for the new starter gear when I used WS's for my IO520 overhaul. 

Brian

Brian,

Its AD 96-09-10, http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/5DE5ACBD6CBC8B2A8625684D00643AC1?OpenDocument&Highlight=96-09-10

If the factory will accept the core engine, (Lycoming is a bit more strict than Continental), they don’t generally have charge backs that field overhaul shops have to deal with.  For example Continental accepts non VAR cranks without penalty.  As Lycoming will take their faulty cranks back under 2012-19-01.  Lycoming can also recertify and reuse roller tappets that field overhaulers have to replace.

Clarence

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by M20Doc

[flight2000]

4 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Brian,

Its AD 96-09-10, http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/5DE5ACBD6CBC8B2A8625684D00643AC1?OpenDocument&Highlight=96-09-10

If the factory will accept the core engine, (Lycoming is a bit more strict than Continental), they don’t generally have charge backs that field overhaul shops have to deal with.  For example Continental accepts non VAR cranks without penalty.  As Lycoming will take their faulty cranks back under 2012-19-01.  Lycoming can also recertify and reuse roller tappets that field overhaulers have to replace.

Clarence

Oops, I did read that one, just not all the way down into the depths of it....since both of mine were P/C/W already....

I only have 4 AD's to deal with, one of which will go away when I change out the old ram horn control wheel for the new style. 

Thanks for the other info on the factory.  Overhauling both O360's on the Travel Air will be equivalent ($$$ wise) to one IO520 overhaul....

Brian

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, flight2000 said:

Oops, I did read that one, just not all the way down into the depths of it....since both of mine were P/C/W already....

I only have 4 AD's to deal with, one of which will go away when I change out the old ram horn control wheel for the new style. 

Thanks for the other info on the factory.  Overhauling both O360's on the Travel Air will be equivalent ($$$ wise) to one IO520 overhaul....

Brian

Don’t even look at the IO720!  The camshaft alone is 10K. I could buy a J model for the cost of the engine in my 400.

Clarence

[flight2000]

7 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Don’t even look at the IO720!  The camshaft alone is 10K. I could buy a J model for the cost of the engine in my 400.

Clarence

Good thing you can save some money on labor.   

Bet the smile is priceless up at altitude with that much power though....dare I say almost intoxicating...