Ground Stoppage going to Florida after Xmas

[Yooper Rocketman]

Well, for the second year in a row, I was given a ground stoppage for my IFR clearance going from the Midwest into Florida the day after Xmas.   Last year I was at the runway , burning 18 gallons an hour in the Lancair Prop jet, while trying to pull my clearance into Spruce Creek (just south of Daytona Beach) when Minneapolis Center gave me a 1 1/2 hour delay on my clearance.  Long story short, after several phone calls, and after taxing back to my hangar and shutting down, it was determined there was no options other than VFR, which in a Jet-A burner is not really an option.  Had to top off fuel again and ended up with no issues picking the IFR up at the delayed time   Even got an apology from MSP Center for the delay, which was out of their control.   A corporate jet, trying to pull an airborne clearance out of northern Kentucky, found out the hard way they weren’t “playing ball” with anyone trying to trump the system either.

 So, on 12/26/18 I flew to Appleton, WI to pick up my son and his girlfriend for our Florida trip and during my ground taxi to the FBO at 7:30 AM local, I was given a 4 hour 10 minutes delay advisory for my IFR clearance into Florida.  Again, no issues with the delayed clearance, just lost 4+ hours of Florida weather for my son coming down for just 3 1/2 days.  

Anyone else seeing anything like this in a GA plane??

Just an added comment, this trip was with 4 seats full and minimal luggage, in a single engine home built airplane everyone claims is a Two passenger plane, within gross!!!!

Tom

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N994PT

 

[FoxMike]

Looks like a piston would have been faster. Maybe  we are starting to see saturation of Class A.  I was going to Kerrville IFR during the time Reagan fired all the controllers.  I needed to make a quick stop in  KAMA for fuel.  Once I landed I had to get back in line for another clearance. I had to wait till the next afternoon to get one (about 24 hours).  I had to hang around the FBO and wait for the ground controller to call the FBO. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Government “shutdown” effect?   

No, I never have seen a clearance delay in my GA turbine years.  

I doubt it’s a Class A airspace congestion issue as the space between FL180 and 270 is virtually empty.  

Approach congestion in urban areas is possible even at “reliever” airports.  

[gsengle]

I’ve never gotten an EDCT that wasn’t related to saturation at the destination airport which in turn was generally weather related. Hmmm


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[Bob]

You move so fast that ATC needed extra time to figure it out?  

[bradp]

PBI TFR?  If not I wonder if spruce creek gets sucked into a class B “metro area” for flow control and metering.  

One way to game the system that may work is to file to an intermediate point for your clearance limit in Jax / ATL airspace and use spruce creek as the alternate airport.  Once you get into the local center ask that you go to your filed alternate should be no issue.  This works in NYC area to avoid going to MXE / up to the Catskills for your routing NE.  The controllers don’t care, it just tricks the computer that kicks the LOA routing.   Thus I don’t think of it as an ethical issue.  Seriously you’re essentially a lancair at a FL that no center controller really sees much traffic for.  May be worth trying without having to get stuck at 17,500. 

[ArtVandelay]

Is it a problem on the departure or arrival end?
If departure, leave VFR, once in a unpopulated airspace ask for a popup IFR. If arrival, pick a airport in boondocks and cancel IFR when close. If at an airport without a tower I always leave VFR when possible even if they have a clearance frequency and pickup clearance in the air.


Tom

[Marauder]

Is it a problem on the departure or arrival end?
If departure, leave VFR, once in a unpopulated airspace ask for a popup IFR. If arrival, pick a airport in boondocks and cancel IFR when close. If at an airport without a tower I always leave VFR when possible even if they have a clearance frequency and pickup clearance in the air.


Tom

I think Tom’s challenge is that he wants to get into the flight levels as quickly as possible and if he can’t get there, it will change his flight significantly. Flying with Jerry in his JetProp, those Jet-A engines have a drinking problem below the flight levels. If Tom is denied access to the flight levels, he will most likely need to land short by a lot and have a nice fuel bill.

I’m still trying to understand what could necessitate those kinds of delays. I wonder if the controllers are short staffed either due to the shutdown (sick outs?) or for some reason that destination area is bombarded with extraordinary traffic for some reason. I doubt weather is causing it.


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[Mark89114]

When I used to fly professionally out of TEB, southbound to FL during the holidays it was always busy.  I think it is just saturation.  I remember holding for hour plus near Cape Canaveral area, diverting for fuel, and then answering stupid management questions and then continuing southbound without delay.  I dont think it was conspiracy then or now.

[cujet]

While this may have no bearing on the situation, experimental aircraft may be last on the list of priorities. We operate an experimental EA300L and landing at MIA has been problematic. As they simply refused to let us in the Class B airspace. 

The suggestion to file to elsewhere is what we do in our G550 corporate jet. Then divert at low altitude.  It also matters where you depart from. Guessing you'd have little trouble flying to JAX (or Valdosta, GA) , then VFR to Spruce Creek. 

No joke, we've been subject to many hour NY ground holds so often, we fly our G550 VFR at 2500 feet, from HPN to SWF (nearby Stewart, NY) . Where we simply file to PBI, SUA (Stuart, FL near PBI) or Pittsburgh :0 (whatever works) and go on our way. 

Sure, we've had to land at a nearby destination. But we save hours. 

 

Nothing like "free and unrestricted travel" in the good ol USA. That is until our superiors simply say "request denied". 

Edited December 29, 2018 by cujet

[cujet]

Somehow, I doubt the Lancair altitudes are saturated. 

[gsengle]

While this may have no bearing on the situation, experimental aircraft may be last on the list of priorities. We operate an experimental EA300L and landing at MIA has been problematic. As they simply refused to let us in the Class B airspace. 
The suggestion to file to elsewhere is what we do in our G550 corporate jet. Then divert at low altitude.  It also matters where you depart from. Guessing you'd have little trouble flying to JAX (or Valdosta, GA) , then VFR to Spruce Creek. 
No joke, we've been subject to many hour NY ground holds so often, we fly our G550 VFR at 2500 feet, from HPN to SWF (nearby Stewart, NY) . Where we simply file to PBI, SUA (Stuart, FL near PBI) or Pittsburgh :0 (whatever works) and go on our way. 
Sure, we've had to land at a nearby destination. But we save hours. 
 
Nothing like "free and unrestricted travel" in the good ol USA. That is until our superiors simply say "request denied". 

US ATC is pretty strict about it’s first come first serve policy is my understanding. They wouldn’t discriminate because you’re not commercial or not certified and so on.


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[flyboy0681]

6 hours ago, Mark89114 said:

When I used to fly professionally out of TEB, southbound to FL during the holidays it was always busy.  I think it is just saturation. then or now.

At my home drome at Boca Raton, the ramp is filled with jets wingtip to wingtip from December 20th through the end of February.

And in response to BradP, the presidential TFR was cancelled two days before his scheduled trip down here.

[ArtVandelay]

I think Tom’s challenge is that he wants to get into the flight levels as quickly as possible and if he can’t get there, it will change his flight significantly. Flying with Jerry in his JetProp, those Jet-A engines have a drinking problem below the flight levels. If Tom is denied access to the flight levels, he will most likely need to land short by a lot and have a nice fuel bill.

I’m still trying to understand what could necessitate those kinds of delays. I wonder if the controllers are short staffed either due to the shutdown (sick outs?) or for some reason that destination area is bombarded with extraordinary traffic for some reason. I doubt weather is causing it.


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But what I’m saying is to start/end the trip VFR, you can still fly up to 17500’, and only for a short time to get you in or out, then go IFR/flight levels.


Tom

[carqwik]

We have the opposite problem in the winter in Scottsdale/Deer Valley when trying to depart IFR.  There's only one departure frequency and they can't let IFRs depart simultaneously from both airports.  So we depart VFR and pick up IFR enroute to destination.  I'd second what others said, don't file to anywhere near a saturated Tracon like Orlando or Palm Beach; file to a destination like JAX and then go VFR the rest of the way if possible.

[Hank]

Lots of extra college football in Florida in December . . . . Plus snowbirds and other warmth-seeking vacationers.

[MB65E]

7 hours ago, cujet said:

While this may have no bearing on the situation, experimental aircraft may be last on the list of priorities. We operate an experimental EA300L and landing at MIA has been problematic. As they simply refused to let us in the Class B airspace. 

The suggestion to file to elsewhere is what we do in our G550 corporate jet. Then divert at low altitude.  It also matters where you depart from. Guessing you'd have little trouble flying to JAX (or Valdosta, GA) , then VFR to Spruce Creek. 

No joke, we've been subject to many hour NY ground holds so often, we fly our G550 VFR at 2500 feet, from HPN to SWF (nearby Stewart, NY) . Where we simply file to PBI, SUA (Stuart, FL near PBI) or Pittsburgh :0 (whatever works) and go on our way. 

Sure, we've had to land at a nearby destination. But we save hours. 

 

Nothing like "free and unrestricted travel" in the good ol USA. That is until our superiors simply say "request denied". 

Your ops limits allow class B airports?

What makes your 300L experimental? 

I’ve had 4 ops limits I’ve helped write, none allowed class B and I tried. 

Edit: allowed class B airspace yes, I have not been able to land at class B airports as the ops limits prevent it. The Ops limits are the most subjective part of each FSDO these days I feel. Almost like 337’s lol.

Also, maybe the EE aircraft are different than  AB. Experimentals. 

 

-Matt

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

I have no such limitation for Class B and have never heard of any Lancair having any Class B limitations.  We have a bunch of owners on our builders forum based and operating out of Class B airports.  

Tom

[Yooper Rocketman]

My explanation LAST YEAR, which eliminates the shut down theory, was too many planes flying into Florida between Christmas and New Years.  Low IFR in the morning also didn’t help.  I called Flight Service to clarify AND MSP Center said the same when I finally was released last year.  

When I pulled weather Wednesday morning JAX was at or below minimums.  

I thought last year was an anomaly, and picking my son and his girlfriend up in Appleton, WI meant I wasn’t aware of the ground hold until arriving in ATW.  That same delay is a nonissue at my home airport.   Last year I saw several planes try getting at least into JAX with their IFR and they were denied.   They even asked if they could amend their cruising altitude to 10-12k upon arriving to the Florida line. Those requests were denied as well. My only option would have been to re-file into an airport in southern Georgia and cancel once out of the flight levels.  I don’t have enough reserve fuel to fly the last part of the flight below 18k.  That means a fuel stop too, and a fuel stop adds $100 in added fuel burn.  Combine that with the higher fuel burn at 17.5 I’m likely approaching $200 additional cost to the flight AND no ATC Services. They were not doing any VFR Flight Following, that I could hear, until getting into the Daytona Beach Class C.  

I was just wondering how many others have seen this and if it’s just during the Christmas break.  

Tom

[cujet]

You can imagine just how intolerant a Billionaire can be when told to remain on the ground for hours. We use just about every trick possible to get in the air including flying a G550 VFR. 

I clearly understand you don't want to stop, but that may be exactly what is necessary to make it work. Plus it's always nice to get out and stretch legs after a few hours. 

Unfortunately, we stopped somewhere unplanned due to awful NY weather and promptly hit the wingtip on an unseen fence post. Even so, 22 years down the road, it's worked out far more often than not. 

[mike_elliott]

52 minutes ago, cujet said:

You can imagine just how intolerant a Billionaire can be when told to remain on the ground for hours.

Nothing compared to telling my ex wife she was wrong... Boy, did I get reeducated  my pilot buddy who flys a G550 has only kind things to say about his boss and their handling of unexpected delays, so I guess its all about the entitlement of the individual how they react to the unexpected. 

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Nothing compared to telling my ex wife she was wrong... Boy, did I get reeducated  my pilot buddy who flys a G550 has only kind things to say about his boss and their handling of unexpected delays, so I guess its all about the entitlement of the individual how they react to the unexpected. 

Sometimes it can be the manner in which you deliver the news . . . .  

Edited January 1, 2019 by Hank

[Jim Peace]

On 12/28/2018 at 8:38 PM, Yooper Rocketman said:

while trying to pull my clearance into Spruce Creek (just south of Daytona Beach)

Anyone else seeing anything like this in a GA plane??

Solution:  Just move here then no need to fly down, save on fuel.

Picture is sunset last night.

[steingar]

Tom, I hate hate hate to tell you this, but you're flying a jet.  $200 shouldn't be an issue for a jet.  I know that sucks and ain't right, but that's how it is.  Ya pays for your pleasure.  Sorry to hear ATC is keeping that lovely airplane of yours out of the sky where it belongs.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I have no interest in flying VFR on that long of a cross country, irrespective of the cost.  I want the safety of positive control airspace.  I’ll continue doing what I’ve done the last two years, accept the ground stoppage and wait it out.

The purpose of this thread was to see if this was a typical “day after Christmas” issue, a “any day between Christmas and New Years” issue, or just a couple unique weather/traffic issues the day after Christmas the last two years.  

Tom