231 v 252 v 262

[Gatlin Gun]

OK...at the risk of showing my ignorance, I ask the following:  Besides the obvious engine difference, any significant differences between the 231, 252, and 262?  I've heard "the 252 and 262 fixed some of the 231 issues".  Like what??  Is it worth the money???  

 

[gsxrpilot]

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20K252_evaluation_report.htm

That does a pretty good job of explaining it.

I'll add that there are actually four variants.

• 231 - the first of the M20K line, 
• 262 - an STC based upgraded 231, STC is no longer available.
• 252 - the 2nd generation M20K from Mooney (252 can be upgraded to an Encore following a Mooney drawing, no STC required)
• Encore - the 3rd generation M20K from Mooney 

I own a 252 that I'll soon upgrade to an Encore. I think they're worth every additional dollar.

[carusoam]

Great question, Gatlin!

Fantastic Answer, Paul/Rocket!

differences to look for... things like...

• turbo controller
• intercooler
• 12 v 24v systems
• UL

The K is the best mid body performer for Long cross countries in the east/west category...

It got continuous refinement and improvement over the years...

Great for crossing mountain ranges and topping many weather systems...

The 262 was an aftermarket upgrade as was the Rocket...

• MooneyMart/Coy Jacobs
• Rocket Engineering

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[johncuyle]

Worth the money is hard.  The differences between the 252 and 231 are:

• Engine operation.  You must manually limit MP in the 231 and it's trickier to fly, particularly to get maximum engine power out of, than the 252.  The 252 is barely harder to fly than a 201.  There's a semi-automated wastegate available (the Merlyn) which eliminates bootstrapping and other fixed wastegate headaches, but doesn't limit MP and may actually make power management slightly harder (I've only flown with it.)
• Intercooler.  The 252 features an intercooler in addition to the automatic wastegate.  This improves high altitude performance and also helps keep the CHTs down, which should prolong life.  The 231 can be fitted with an aftermarket intercooler and it more or less resolves this issue.  If you buy one with it already fitted, great.  If not, you can buy the kit (Turboplus) and have it installed, but the installation isn't trivial (expensive).  I bought mine with no intercooler and got one of the first new turboplus kits and think every 231 should be upgraded.
• Electrical.  The 252 is a 28v plane with a dual alternator setup.  In addition to being more efficient and having greater redundancy (important for IFR) it is also eligible for FIKI TKS.  While there is a standby alternator that should be able to be fitted to the 231 if you yank the vacuum system, it still doesn't get you the option for FIKI TKS.  If FIKI TKS is something you need, the 231 isn't an option.  Think hard here:  FIKI looks like it may be a stumbling block with certain avionics upgrades (I don't think the G5 or GFC 500 can be fit to a FIKI plane, ask your Avionics/Autopilot shop.)

The 262 fixes the first two shortcomings but not the third.  I suppose you've probably already answered this question in the affirmative but, are you sure you want a turbo?  If you're not going to be on oxygen going >300nm topping mountains or weather, a 201 offers ease of use, lower maintenance, and generally higher useful load.

[KLRDMD]

16 hours ago, Gatlin Gun said:

OK...at the risk of showing my ignorance, I ask the following:  Besides the obvious engine difference, any significant differences between the 231, 252, and 262?  I've heard "the 252 and 262 fixed some of the 231 issues".  Like what??  Is it worth the money???  

The 262 is an STC that's no longer available, as said.

The 231 is 90% of what the 252 is for 70% of the price.

Is the 252 better ? Absolutely. Is it worth the price differential ? To some, yes. To me, no.

[DanM20C]

1 hour ago, johncuyle said:

There's a semi-automated wastegate available (the Merlyn) which eliminates bootstrapping and other fixed wastegate headaches, but doesn't limit MP and may actually make power management slightly harder (I've only flown with it.)

Just curious what you meant by "May actually make power management slightly harder"?  I have flown both fixed and Merlyn(working and not working) and I agree there isn't much difference in engine management but I find the Merlyn slightly easier.  A properly working Merlyn is a huge advantage,  down low the turbo doesn't work as hard and up high you get a 5-6K ft bump in critical alt.

For the OP, it has all been stated well above.  I like what Ken said, the 231 is 90% of a 252 for 70% of the price.  But it's actually closer to 92%  231/252=.916

Go with your budget.  If you can afford a 252 look for one but don't ignore the really nice 231's(262's) on the market.  If you are looking for bang for your buck, a modded 231 with LB, Intercooler. and Merlyn can't be beat.

Cheers,

Dan

[M016576]

7 hours ago, johncuyle said:

 

• Electrical.  The 252 is a 28v plane with a dual alternator setup.  In addition to being more efficient and having greater redundancy (important for IFR) it is also eligible for FIKI TKS.  While there is a standby alternator that should be able to be fitted to the 231 if you yank the vacuum system, it still doesn't get you the option for FIKI TKS.  If FIKI TKS is something you need, the 231 isn't an option.  Think hard here:  FIKI looks like it may be a stumbling block with certain avionics upgrades (I don't think the G5 or GFC 500 can be fit to a FIKI plane, ask your Avionics/Autopilot shop.)

 

I think you can fit the G5 / GFC500 to a Fiki installation.... its just that you lose the FIKI approval when you do. At least that’s how I understand it.  Could be that a certification will be completed in the future, unknown though.

[Gatlin Gun]

8 hours ago, johncuyle said:

I suppose you've probably already answered this question in the affirmative but, are you sure you want a turbo? 

Well, with a lot of family in the colorado (Denver and some in mountains) area, I'm leaning heavily toward a turbo, but it's not a must I suppose.  I do like the high(er) altitude options for weather and wind considerations, and I like extra power for summer, high(er) pressure/density altitude options.  Still, with all that said, I'm not die-hard, must-have turbo...yet.  

[Gatlin Gun]

7 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Is the 252 better ? Absolutely. Is it worth the price differential ? To some, yes. To me, no

As I'm trying to learn fast here, I'm really curious about your "no".  Why?  Just not enough bang for the buck in terms of power?

 

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, Gatlin Gun said:

Well, with a lot of family in the colorado (Denver and some in mountains) area, I'm leaning heavily toward a turbo, but it's not a must I suppose.  I do like the high(er) altitude options for weather and wind considerations, and I like extra power for summer, high(er) pressure/density altitude options.  Still, with all that said, I'm not die-hard, must-have turbo...yet.  

I flew to and from CO several times in my M20C... and then decided enough with that and traded it for a 252. Once you fly a turbo in the mountains, you won't want anything else.

[Gatlin Gun]

That's exactly what i've been told, GSXR.  I guess that's why I'm leaning so heavily towards a 231.  THENNNNNNNN, a 262 popped up, and temptation is a dangerous thing.  

[carusoam]

While you are in a learning mode...

There are two other things you may come across...

Some people have enjoyed adding a TN to their trusty O&IO360s... a nice way to add additional power higher up...

Others have enjoyed adding an additional pair of NA cylinders... to produce 300hp down low... this HP declines with altitude percentage wise... but starts out with 50% more hp than the stock Mooney to begin with.  

For interesting reading... look up the Rocket and the Missile... beloved by owners/MSers everywhere...

To whet the appetite... the current Ovation is essentially powered by the Missile’s engine (more or less, not exactly, IO550A vs IO550G)

I prefer the IO550N...

Tough choices...

• NA
• TC
• TN
• MP controller
• Inter cooler

We have threads around here supporting the intercoolers and turbo normalizers... input given by the current equipment suppliers...

Enjoy the hunt!

Best regards,

-a-

[Gatlin Gun]

On 12/18/2018 at 9:52 PM, gsxrpilot said:

• 262 - an STC based upgraded 231, STC is no longer available.
• 252 - the 2nd generation M20K from Mooney (252 can be upgraded to an Encore following a Mooney drawing, no STC required)

 

Ok, so I read about the differences between the 231 and 252...what about between the 252 and 262?  Comparable??

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Gatlin Gun said:

As I'm trying to learn fast here, I'm really curious about your "no".  Why?  Just not enough bang for the buck in terms of power?

 

@KLRDMD will be along in a minute to answer your question.  In the mean time, I'll say why I'm in the "yes" group.

• The difference in cost between the 231 and the 252 is all in the purchase price. While the ongoing running costs would be the same or the 252 might even be slightly less because of better cooling, less chance of over boosting, easier to get more hours out of the cylinders, etc. We know the purchase price is often a very small part of the overall ownership experience. 
• Along with the first point, 252's are very quick and easy to sell. And therefore could be a better investment in the long run, than the 231.
• Faster than the 231 and the highest ceiling of any Mooney. I've run my 252 at FL250 and FL260 for many hours in cruise. It's very comfortable and very fast up there.
•  A more modern interior. Most of the 252's have the removable split rear seats which are just a very convenient and nice option to have. The seats come in or out in about 60 seconds and when out leave a flat carpeted floor perfect for luggage, pets, etc. 
• Useful Load - The whole M20K line suffers in the UL category. And be sure to check the UL of any K you're looking at. The 252 has the ability to be converted to an Encore and gets an additional 130 lbs of UL along with it. 252 Encore's are very rare and command top dollar when they do come on the market. The Encore conversion might be the one upgrade that actually more than pays for its self when you go to sell. 231's can't be upgraded at all now that the 262 STC isn't available.
• Everyone wants one. When I was trying to decide on an M20K myself, every 231 owner I talked with, conceded that they would have preferred a 252 but just couldn't justify the cost, or couldn't find one. Whereas every 252 owner I talked to just said it was the best model Mooney ever made.
• With the difference in capital cost fading quickly as the years go by, I'm very happy I held out for the 252. My 252 has been very economical to own and fly. I'm coming up on 1600 hours on the original cylinders. And have over 1000 hours on the turbo. 

[gsxrpilot]

3 minutes ago, Gatlin Gun said:

Ok, so I read about the differences between the 231 and 252...what about between the 252 and 262?  Comparable??

I can't really speak to this. All I know is that the 262 still only has one alternator and can't be converted to an Encore with the increased gross weight.

Also the 262 is a third party STC conversion of the 231 (like a Rocket) whereas the 252 is a factory Mooney model.

[carusoam]

Some outside Shops have generated copies of factory upgrades... or have engineered power plant upgrades that the factory has purchased later on...

The 262 is one of those upgrades applied to existing planes by Coy Jacob’s Mooney Mart...

The 252 is a full on, Mooney Factory, Made right from the beginning....

Modding an older airframe resulted in having a left-over 12 volt system in the 262...  The 252 is 24v bird...

In that time frame... lots of things were modernized... 20years later, you have to decide for yourself... some things that were modern then may need replacement...

When it comes to Ks, fully loaded with O2 and anti-ice are great, but at a cost to UL... always check the logs for UL...

Best regards,

-a-

[Gatlin Gun]

Thanks a TON, guys.  It's a steep learning curve, so I truly appreciate the input/advice/experience.  

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Gatlin Gun said:

Thanks a TON, guys.  It's a steep learning curve, so I truly appreciate the input/advice/experience.  

Where are you located... we can probably find some examples for you to look at and talk with owners.

[milotron]

262 owner here.

Biggest differences I note between 252 and 262 are:

262 is 14V but CAN come with dual alternators. Exact same engine as the 252.

262 is aftermarket and makes FIKI impossible. I have a full TKS system that would be FIKI if on a 252.

262 has no opportunity to upgrade to Encore.

252 has more modern interior and curved windows.

252 has those cool inner gear doors

 

iain

 

[carusoam]

Paul does a great job at covering so many technical details with first hand knowledge...

Ken adds another side to the discussion that is unique for most airplane owners without an airplane business... He also has first hand knowledge, of owning about thirty? Different GA planes, one after the other...

Best regards,

-a-

[Gatlin Gun]

ok...so I don't think i can afford a 252 at this point.  So, eliminating that option and assuming all else being equal, is the 262 a no-brainer better investment and better performer than a 231?

[KLRDMD]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Ken adds another side to the discussion that is unique for most airplane owners without an airplane business... He also has first hand knowledge, of owning about thirty? Different GA planes, one after the other...

15 at the present time. Offer accepted on #16 to be delivered in about a month. A model I've never owned before. Stay tuned.

[Gatlin Gun]

6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Where are you located... we can probably find some examples for you to look at and talk with owners.

I'm in Eastern Nebraska and have flown with 20J and 20K buddies, but the 262 was really the main question since i was so unfamiliar with the concept.

[carusoam]

Ken,

Something fun to have around the house?

Low and slow?

Or an efficient machine for lightly loaded travel?

-or-

Full on aerobatic monster?

Let us know when you can.

Best regards,

-a-

[KLRDMD]

41 minutes ago, Gatlin Gun said:

As I'm trying to learn fast here, I'm really curious about your "no".  Why?  Just not enough bang for the buck in terms of power?

For me, the price differential simply wasn't worth it. I prefer the 12V over 24V today. 12V batteries are much cheaper and if I need a jump start in the middle of nowhere, Mexico the chances of me finding a 12V donor is much higher than 24V. Back in the 1980s current draw was much different than today's avionics, LEDs, etc. so we simply don't need 24V systems today. The automatic waste gate is nice. I've owned about every version of turbo ever made in various airplanes and have no issues with a manual waste gate, properly managed. The induction system is better on the 252, something you cannot make a 231 capable of. Most 231s today have the -LB engine, a tremendous upgrade over the -GB and most have an intercooler. As they sit for sale today, there isn't nearly the difference between a 231 and a 252 as delivered from the factory. And the '84 and later 231s have all the same nice things like smooth belly and removable back seats that the 252s have.

90% for 70%.