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 Hey everybody, just wanted to Make a little post here about a decision I recently made about my Airplane. I have a 1964C model, the engine has about 1950 hours. My tanks need a reseal, my paint has seen better days, but it’s been a very good airplane. I have a panel that contains very nice avionics, an avidyne 440, stec 30 auto pilot with GPSS, ADS-B In our; 4 cylinder engine monitor; fuel flow monitor.  It is a very well-equipped C model airplane that just needs a little tender loving care to make it a top-notch specimen of the C models. We have been recently considering getting a 250 horse Comanche or 285 horse bonanza so we can improve our climb out performance and increase our altitude ability and be able to make it to our new place that we have in Durango Colorado from Fort Worth Texas, non stop. Unfortunately, nicely equipped Comanches and Bonanza airplanes are very difficult to find that are affordable. Nothing I can afford is even close to being equipped with the avionics my little C model has.   So, we determined that we would keep the Mooney and absolutely deck it out. We have an appointment with weep no more in May to get both tanks totally resealed. I have contacted a painter up in Tennessee and gotten a quote on a brand new paint job that I really want. And I’ve also made contact with Jewel Aviation in Missouri to do an engine overhaul when that time comes. There are a couple things I would like to perfect with my Airpoint. No matter what we have done, my cylinder temperatures seem to run hot on climb out.  This greatly affects my client performance, because I cannot continuously climb without the cylinders getting to 420° or slightly higher. My oil temperature also climbs greatly during my climb out , sometimes reaching 225° before I have to push the nose down, illuminate my climb momentarily to cool the engine off. Certainly there is something that can be done, we have played with the Cowell flaps but it has not done anything. We have toyed around with the temperatures with and without Lazar no scowling closure, the temps are actually cooler with the enclosure removed. My mechanic has been thinking about doing some kind of a double pass-through oil cooler, says that if we can increase the cooling efficiency of the oil it may cool the rest of the engine some. I think if we could hone in on this one issue, it would alleviate some of the frustrations I had with the aircraft. Any suggestions at all? 

 

 

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Good choice you have a C that has good bones and a new to you Commanche or Bonanza will be an unknown and certainly more expensive to own and operate. As for the (high) temps we all know that our C's run hot I don't stress about being just over 400 on the cylinders in climb as its below redline. Have you replaced your vernatherm if it's old  I Can almost guarantee you will see lower oil temps if you replace it. We replaced ours and see an average of ten to fifteen degrees cooler. What kind of shape is your dog house in lots of potential to lower temps there if it's a bit ragged. And of course new paint isn't going to improve your performance but will certainly make you feel better about your C.

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@Supercop0184, have you considered a twin?  C310s are a pretty good price.  Due to a growing family (two teenage boys that keep growing), I recently bought one and love the thing!  It climbs very well into the teens at gross weight with the three-blade props and costs me about 60% more than my "F" to operate, but the safety and payload are worth it to me.   

The Ray-Jay idea is a good one... flying in the rockies almost demands turbo.

As far as cooling, check out David's ( @Sabremech ) 2.0 cowling.  

Good luck in the search... be it for a new plane, or expensive upgrades to the current one.. :)   

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After experimenting extensively I’ve come to the conclusion that for my C climbing at 120 mph and 25 squared keeps the engine very happy. The slight performance I give up initially is quickly returned by holding that power setting (with my turbo) until reaching cruise altitude. 

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Glad you are keeping it.  Regarding cooling, number one cause seems to be baffles.  Feel free to post pictures with the cowl off and let’s see if Mooneyspace can get you at least 10 degree reduction for less than the cost of a six pack.  :)

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15 hours ago, Supercop0184 said:

 No matter what we have done, my cylinder temperatures seem to run hot on climb out.  This greatly affects my client performance, because I cannot continuously climb without the cylinders getting to 420° or slightly higher. My oil temperature also climbs greatly during my climb out , sometimes reaching 225° before I have to push the nose down, illuminate my climb momentarily to cool the engine off. Certainly there is something that can be done, we have played with the Cowell flaps but it has not done anything. We have toyed around with the temperatures with and without Lazar no scowling closure, the temps are actually cooler with the enclosure removed. My mechanic has been thinking about doing some kind of a double pass-through oil cooler, says that if we can increase the cooling efficiency of the oil it may cool the rest of the engine some. I think if we could hone in on this one issue, it would alleviate some of the frustrations I had with the aircraft. Any suggestions at all? 

Yup, that's the crappy cylinder cooling that's a standard factory feature of the C model.  As you note, the cowl closure doesn't help at all.  The Sabre cowl looks great but is a long way off until STC'd for the C. The only people who don't have this issue are the ones without an engine monitor ;).  Get the baffles as tight as you can - including the big gaps around the starter and alternator/generator that tend to appear. Make sure your carb is giving you >17gph fuel flow at full power takeoff.  Check timing.  The oil cooling should be fixable - I've never seen above 209 in climb even with my #4 CHT at 440.  But fixing your vernatherm valve or whatever is preventing oil cooling won't fix your cylinder temp issue - it's baked into the bad design.  Keeping rpms low on the ground and limiting the length of the ground run is the only thing that helps me.  

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thanks for all the responses and suggestions - 

As far as the twin goes - I just can’t justify the costs of a twin - not so much the initial buy in but maintenance - it’s just my wife and I, and of course our two little pups. 

 

Part of my comahce research was spent in their forums and Facebook groups - and they are just not as friendly and tight of a group as the Mooney family is. 

We’ve done some work on the doghouse - but I’ll definitely snap some shots of it and post them so others can give any suggestions.

 

The turbo idea is fantastic - and not one I had thought of. That would enable me to easily get to 15k so I can go right over the mountains. I’ll start saving for that right after I get the tanks / paint / overhaul done lol!

 

while we’re at it - anyone know the parts and part numbers needed for a direct replacement for my belly strobe “beacon” for the LED Whelen? 

 

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15 minutes ago, Bug Smasher said:

In spite of the high CHTs during climb, it sounds like the longevity of your engine has not been impacted since you are still going strong at 1950 hrs. Glad to hear you're keeping her. Good luck with upgrade and please post some good pics when it's done!

Yeah you’re definitely right - engine has been good to us. It was flown often before we got it - and we fly the heck out of it. 

Definitely - paint probably won’t come until October or so - gotta find the money to pay for it hahahaha 

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On 12/15/2018 at 11:10 PM, Guitarmaster said:

C310s are a pretty good price...60% more than my "F" to operate, but the safety and payload are worth it to me.

 

I too love the 310s but aren't you going from 10gph to 24gph @ cruise?  I've talked to a few long term owners that block 28gph for most flights due increased fuel burn during the climb?  I'd love the second engine, etc too but haven't been able to get over operating costs.  If you have a way to only increase operating costs 60% I'd be interested.  You can PM me if you want.

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread...

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On 12/15/2018 at 6:55 PM, Supercop0184 said:

we determined that we would keep the Mooney and absolutely deck it out.

 

Hard to argue with your logic...taking a good plane and making it great...I want to paint mine one of these years...keep us posted on your upgrades!

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I've kind of resolved myself with my 63 C model into accepting the high cylinder temps on departure (even though the Saavy Analysis guys don't like it).  I have tried everything.  I bought a new baffling from Airforms incorporated a few years ago.  They are as tight as can be.  You can barely slip a piece of paper between the dog house and the engine and components.  No difference.  I then went with the recommendations that my fuel flow was too low on full power take off and departure.  Turns out there are 2 carburetors available.  One is a lean carb and the other is a very rich carb.  The lean carb that I had was only giving me 15 gph on takeoff.  So, under recommendation I put on the rich carb.  I now see 17-18 gph on take off.  Did the cylinder head temps change?  Not one bit.  Now it is just easier to foul plugs while taxiing. :)  My prop RPM was a little low according to my new engine monitor.  I was told that may make a difference to the CHT's and fuel flow So I had my mechanic adjust it up to 2700 RPM (it was at 2625).  No change at all.

So after putting a lot of money into the situation and not getting any ROI, I decided just to accept the higher CHT's.  And I have read in many other places, like on this posting,  that say the C model cooling is just poor.

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I too love the 310s but aren't you going from 10gph to 24gph @ cruise?  I've talked to a few long term owners that block 28gph for most flights due increased fuel burn during the climb?  I'd love the second engine, etc too but haven't been able to get over operating costs.  If you have a way to only increase operating costs 60% I'd be interested.  You can PM me if you want.
Sorry if I'm derailing the thread...
I sent you a PM.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

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1 hour ago, Kris_Adams said:

I too love the 310s but aren't you going from 10gph to 24gph @ cruise?  I've talked to a few long term owners that block 28gph for most flights due increased fuel burn during the climb?  I'd love the second engine, etc too but haven't been able to get over operating costs.  If you have a way to only increase operating costs 60% I'd be interested.  You can PM me if you want.

Search for previous posts of mine on this site. I've discussed in some detail how my Baron costs +/- 50% more than my previous Mooney. I have shared exact numbers on more than one occasion.

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6 hours ago, steingar said:

Everyone bitches and moans about high cylinder temperatures.  That damn engine or one just like it has been banging away inside that airplane for over 50 years!  How bad can it be?

Def not bitching - just want to correct any correctable issues is all,

6 hours ago, Kris_Adams said:

Hard to argue with your logic...taking a good plane and making it great...I want to paint mine one of these years...keep us posted on your upgrades!

At the recommendation of several folks here - I have contacted joe with hawk aircraft painting in Tampa - he’s scheduling March 2020 - and I’m gonna make sure I’m on that schedule as soon as I see his quote lol. That’s good though - gives me time to save.

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