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Mooney M20F Avionics Upgrade - ADSB


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Also posted at http://reddit.com/r/flying/

Our 1968 Mooney M20F desperately needs an avionics upgrade, however we bought it on the "inexpensive" side and we want to upgrade within reasonable costs.

Currently it has the original Intercom switches with only Pilot/co-pilot, an ADF Receiver and an old KNS-80 and a bad Comm2. Right now I fly VFR with the good Comm (and a backup handheld), a Stratux, and an IPAD with foreflight and GPS. I really have no complaints....it gets the job done.....but could be better.

So We decided to pickup a few used items:

-Garmin GMA340 intercom panel so we can get jacks in the back and even wire in some tunes.

-Garmin GNS-430 (non-waas - I'm sure people will comment about this but it was just so much more expensive! haha) this will give us a nice Primary Nav/Comm and a screen that we can use for GPS/Traffic (lets discuss this) and Etc.

-King KX-125 - this will give us a good Nav/Comm2 along with a digital CDI.

-Garmin GTX-327 Transponder.

 

Question for the experts - what is the best / cost effective way to enable ADSB in/out so that my garmin GNS-430 has WX/Traffic and that my IPAD with foreflight has all of that information as well - without me having to use the Stratux any longer? What would that connection path look like (ie what devices are talking to each other, required to have certain connections/software/etc)

 

THANKS!

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6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Is there an elephant in the room?

Doesn’t ADSB-out require a WAAS input?

What is going to feed the ADSB-out transponder with WAAS?

Or you have this covered somewhere else?

2020 is coming...

Or... What did I miss?  :)

Best regards,

-a-

Yep.

You can either get WAAS out of your 430 or get it from a new transponder.  If the WAAS is from the transponder it can't give you approach capability. If you get the WAAS from the 430, not only does it cover the ADSB requirement, but you'll also have increased approach capability.

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Also posted at http://reddit.com/r/flying/
Our 1968 Mooney M20F desperately needs an avionics upgrade, however we bought it on the "inexpensive" side and we want to upgrade within reasonable costs.
Currently it has the original Intercom switches with only Pilot/co-pilot, an ADF Receiver and an old KNS-80 and a bad Comm2. Right now I fly VFR with the good Comm (and a backup handheld), a Stratux, and an IPAD with foreflight and GPS. I really have no complaints....it gets the job done.....but could be better.
So We decided to pickup a few used items:
-Garmin GMA340 intercom panel so we can get jacks in the back and even wire in some tunes.
-Garmin GNS-430 (non-waas - I'm sure people will comment about this but it was just so much more expensive! haha) this will give us a nice Primary Nav/Comm and a screen that we can use for GPS/Traffic (lets discuss this) and Etc.
-King KX-125 - this will give us a good Nav/Comm2 along with a digital CDI.
-Garmin GTX-327 Transponder.
 
Question for the experts - what is the best / cost effective way to enable ADSB in/out so that my garmin GNS-430 has WX/Traffic and that my IPAD with foreflight has all of that information as well - without me having to use the Stratux any longer? What would that connection path look like (ie what devices are talking to each other, required to have certain connections/software/etc)
 
THANKS!


GDL-84 with Flightstream 210. It will interface with your 327 and with the Flightstream send TIS-B and FIS-B to ForeFlight.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/511180/pn/K10-00233-40#

Another way to go is with the GTX-345 and sell your 327 for around $500.



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Ok thank you for the initial responses.

If I were to use a FreeFlight FDL-978-TXL to get the ADSB WAAS out, can I get ANY information on my GNS430 from that or is it just a pretty looking nav/com with some GPS functions?

Also - noob question since I am not Instrument Rated, will I be able to do most IFR approaches - just not those requiring GPS - WAAS?

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As others have mentioned, if you spring the for WAAS capability in the 430 it'll give you not only GPS approach capability but also an ADSB-out position source for the transponder.

Also, I have in-panel ADSB-in with a panel display (IFD540) and still use my Stratux to supply my tablets.   I get traffic and wx displays on both the tablets and the IFD, and for whatever reason that I don't understand (and I'm a comm engineer), the traffic shown on the IFD and on the tablets don't always match.   Sometimes there's traffic on the IFD that isn't on the tablet, and sometimes there's traffic on the tablet that isn't on the IFD.    The Stratux is two-channel while the FF Ranger is only single channel in for the traffic, but that doesn't explain why there's traffic on the IFD that isn't on the tablet.   It's weird, but, whatever.

My conclusion has been that I'm gonna keep flying with both.   It's cheap redundancy, anyway.

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Ok thank you for the initial responses.

If I were to use a FreeFlight FDL-978-TXL to get the ADSB WAAS out, can I get ANY information on my GNS430 from that or is it just a pretty looking nav/com with some GPS functions?

Also - noob question since I am not Instrument Rated, will I be able to do most IFR approaches - just not those requiring GPS - WAAS?

 

My Lynx 9000 will show traffic on my Garmin GTN but not weather. You will need to look at the FreeFlight site. I suspect not.

 

Also, when I mentioned the 345 above, you will need the WAAS GPS version of it. The standard 345 does not have an onboard GPS.

 

As for the approaches for a non-WAAS GPS, you will be limited to non precision approaches. No LPVs.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, sdflysurf said:

Also - noob question since I am not Instrument Rated, will I be able to do most IFR approaches - just not those requiring GPS - WAAS?

Without WAAS you are restricted to non-precision (LNAV as apposed to LP) approaches and lose vertical navigation, e.g., can't do LPV approaches.    Non-waas GPS approaches have higher minimums.   You can still do many GPS approaches, just not the good ones.    Check approaches for your expected destinations and see what you may or may not be missing. 

It's easy to check available approaches online using either vfrmap.com or skyvector.com.   Select the airport and it's easy to pull up the different approach types for that airport.

Edited by EricJ
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4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


My Lynx 9000 will show traffic on my Garmin GTN but not weather. You will need to look at the FreeFlight site. It I suspect not.

Also, when I mentioned the 345 above, you will need the WAAS GPS version of it. The standard 345 does not have an onboard GPS.

As for the approaches for a non-WAAS GPS, you will be limited to non precision approaches. No LPVs.


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If I cannot do LPV approaches - are there other common approach types that I can use my GNS-430 for - or will I be limited?  I honestly don't need to do LPV because I dont expect to fly in weather that would be that low of minimums.

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7 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Depending on where you are in the country, most approaches may be GPS approaches.   Down here in the southwest if you deleted all the GPS approaches, you'd lose IFR access to a ton of airports.

Yeah - I'm here in So-cal. 

9 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

No cheap way to upgrade the parts you already have. Buy a skybeacon and get everything installed. Use the iPad for adsb in. 

Use the 430’s nav radio to fly ILS precision approaches. 

Noob question: I can use the 430-nonwaas to do ILS precision approaches?  ILS precision approaches are widely used at airports enough that I could do without the WAAS at this time?  Could you explain the avionics components I would need to make sure I have working together for the ILS precision approach? (Ill do some googling also. THANKS!

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Two basic approaches that are not GPS...

1) VOR... non-precision... can run out of ability to get you down through clouds that come close to the ground...

2) ILS... precision... can get you near the ground about 200’ agl...

These are aging systems with their long term future eroding...

3) Going WAAS GPS... the box itself is three nav radios in one...VOR, ILS, and WAAS GPS...

WAAS based approaches are similar to an ILS without any of the ground based antennae....

 

While selecting nav equipment... always be thinking what will I use to get to the ground /VFR when my best radio fails...

Pp thoughts only... not a cfi...

Best regards,

-a-

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Do the Tailbeacon or wingtip Uavix solution for adsb.  Super cheap, easy install, has it’s own waas.  You won’t get anything on your 430, but your ipad/stratus/sentry can be panel mounted and wired into the electrical or cigarette lighter.

Yeah, this won’t display on your 430, but saves you about $5-8 (waas upgrade and new xponder) AMUs which you can save up for your instrument rating.  The nonwaas 430 is perfect for instruments in socal!

 

Edited by Ragsf15e
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41 minutes ago, sdflysurf said:

Yeah - I'm here in So-cal. 

Noob question: I can use the 430-nonwaas to do ILS precision approaches?  ILS precision approaches are widely used at airports enough that I could do without the WAAS at this time?  Could you explain the avionics components I would need to make sure I have working together for the ILS precision approach? (Ill do some googling also. THANKS!

Keep in mind the install for the equipment you listed is going to be expensive. Make sure all guidelines are followed for placement and indicators. The non waas gps can be used for non precision approaches w/o vertical guidance but you will need an updated database ($400 a year). Your 430 also has a nav and com head included in the box. With the proper indicator it can receive the nav info and fly an ILS approach. That approach is independent of gps information so waas/non waas makes little difference.  My guess is localizer approaches will be around for a long time so if they’re convenient continue to use them.  The 430 is a great box but when you factor in install costs etc the waas version is a worthwhile investment. 

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There's a lot of good information in this thread. As others have said, you'll probably be alright, approach wise. With your current configuration you'll have non-precision GPS and VOR as well as precision ILS approaches available to you. The only thing you won't have access to are precision GPS approaches.

I wouldn't worry about the ADSB In and here's why. You don't have a good place to display the data. The 430 screen is shit for displaying traffic and/or weather. You're gonna want to use your tablet for traffic and weather anyway just because of the MUCH better display. So just keep using your Stratux for the ADSB In portion. But you will need to install something to provide the ADSB Out to meet the 2020 mandate.

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53 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Do the Tailbeacon or wingtip Uavix solution for adsb.  Super cheap, easy install, has it’s own waas.  You won’t get anything on your 430, but your ipad/stratus/sentry can be panel mounted and wired into the electrical or cigarette lighter.

Yeah, this won’t display on your 430, but saves you about $5-8 (waas upgrade and new xponder) AMUs which you can save up for your instrument rating.  The nonwaas 430 is perfect for instruments in socal!

 

Thanks that makes me feel comfortable.  My current solution is super budget and gives me a lot of upgrade for the money - I am ok with the non-waas GNS430 with GPS non-precision approaches for the money vs not being able to afford anything similar (nav+comm+gps+nice display).

4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

There's a lot of good information in this thread. As others have said, you'll probably be alright, approach wise. With your current configuration you'll have non-precision GPS and VOR as well as precision ILS approaches available to you. The only thing you won't have access to are precision GPS approaches.

I wouldn't worry about the ADSB In and here's why. You don't have a good place to display the data. The 430 screen is shit for displaying traffic and/or weather. You're gonna want to use your tablet for traffic and weather anyway just because of the MUCH better display. So just keep using your Stratux for the ADSB In portion. But you will need to install something to provide the ADSB Out to meet the 2020 mandate.

Cool.  Also - I heard something about needing ADSB out in order to trigger ADSB towers nearby to continue to send data - like they only respond when they see a transmission - sound right??

Thanks for confirming for me the usefulness of the GNS430 for my appllication (budget), Now for the ADSB-In to find a way to make the stratux or sentry a little more part of the hardwired system (ie more permanent mount, power on trigger with the aircraft MAIN switch, better IPAD mount with charger on the co-pilot panel, etc)

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@gsxrpilot, you hurt my feelings!  The 430 display actually works pretty well for nearby traffic!  Agree that wx is shit on it.

yes, when you get adsb out, it triggers the towers to zap you your own adsb traffic puck.  Although in socal you’re probably getting enough piggy back traffic that it might not appear much different.

Ram mini ipad mount, right side.  Right above usb ports in cig lighter.  Yes I see I’m flying at 9,700’.  No, I have no idea why.  It was a long time ago.  And yes, I see little mermaid is on the iPad instead of traffic on foreflight.  My 3 year old is riding shotgun!

 

1A8089E3-B93B-4194-93F4-EF94D988C72C.jpeg

Edited by Ragsf15e
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SDF,

Confirm that you understand the 2020 requirements... WAAS and ADSB out....

I see it has been mentioned a couple of times, but I am not seeing your response...

This could get expensive if you miss it...

testing your eyes on rag’s 430 with 1000 points of traffic pixels will be great if you aren’t stuck on the ground.

Best regards,

-a-

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4 hours ago, carusoam said:

SDF,

Confirm that you understand the 2020 requirements... WAAS and ADSB out....

I see it has been mentioned a couple of times, but I am not seeing your response...

This could get expensive if you miss it...

testing your eyes on rag’s 430 with 1000 points of traffic pixels will be great if you aren’t stuck on the ground.

Best regards,

-a-

I am already used to seeing traffic on the GNS-430 screen from getting my PPL in a club owned Cessna 172.  However I'll only be ADSB Out with the solution I am talking about right?? so for my GNS-430 I will only be able to use it as a nav/com with GPS navigation - correct?  That all on its own would be very useful though, having waypoints with distance and heading info on that size of screen is plenty fine.  So for my ADSB-In I'll continue to use my IPAD and STRATUX I am assuming...and I'll get WX and traffic on the IPAD that way.

Regarding ADSB OUT and WAAS, from what I was told, If I get the FreeFlight FDL-978-TXL, encoder SAE 5-35, and the Garmin GTX327 - then I will have the ADSB-Out with WAAS (WAAS Antenna connects to the freeflight and the freeflight connects to the Garmin GNS430 and Garmin GTX327.

Please correct me if I am wrong about that......misunderstanding here would be costly.

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I am already used to seeing traffic on the GNS-430 screen from getting my PPL in a club owned Cessna 172.  However I'll only be ADSB Out with the solution I am talking about right?? so for my GNS-430 I will only be able to use it as a nav/com with GPS navigation - correct?  That all on its own would be very useful though, having waypoints with distance and heading info on that size of screen is plenty fine.  So for my ADSB-In I'll continue to use my IPAD and STRATUX I am assuming...and I'll get WX and traffic on the IPAD that way.
Regarding ADSB OUT and WAAS, from what I was told, If I get the FreeFlight FDL-978-TXL, encoder SAE 5-35, and the Garmin GTX327 - then I will have the ADSB-Out with WAAS (WAAS Antenna connects to the freeflight and the freeflight connects to the Garmin GNS430 and Garmin GTX327.
Please correct me if I am wrong about that......misunderstanding here would be costly.


I’ll look up the FreeFlight capabilities for you but I don’t think FreeFlight is fully integrated into the Garmin GNS platform.


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Just now, Marauder said:

 


I’ll look up the FreeFlight capabilities for you but I don’t think FreeFlight is fully integrated into the Garmin GNS platform.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Also, if you’re getting out only and your 430 isn’t waas, it’s not going to integrate with the 430 at all.

 You need to decide if you really need adsb in on the 430.  Probably in the 5-10 AMU range installed.  I have that, it’s useable, but is it really necessary with aall the same info on your iPad?  Probably not.  Or you can keep getting adsb in on the stratux and iPad while using a much cheaper solution for adsb out compliance.  Like maybe 2 AMUs for wingtip light solution.

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Alright I looked. I do not think FreeFlight will display anything on your 430.

b1831e90d0be870c593c904b401eaa9a.jpg

You’ll need the $4900 option. For that price I would go with a GDL-82 and get the Flightstream. It will display both traffic and weather on your 430 and feed your Foreflight.


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