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M20 PPI - All American Aviation is the Dealer


Mr. T

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Looking at a vintage M20 for sale at All American Aviation who I understand to be one of the "big dogs" in the Mooney resale market.

Who could I use for a pre-purchase inspection for one of their aircraft? Do I just use "their guy" even though conventional wisdom says never use the seller's A&P? I gather they're a very reputable dealer but my gut says I'd be better off to use someone from outside -- yet my brain says if there is an "outside" guy, he's probably done dozens and dozens of PPIs for plane sold by All American and probably isn't really as "outside" as you might think.

The plane I'm looking at is due for an annual so it makes sense to have that done in lieu of a less-thorough PPI.

For folks who've bought a plane at All American - who did your PPI / Annual? Why did you choose that path?

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When buying a used machine...

An independent PPI is important for your wallet, and your sanity...

Never use a ‘their guy’ or you might as well skip the PPI as you could get roped in by a less reputable seller with a less-than-reputable maintenance partner....

If the last annual was done by Don Maxwell, take it to JD...

If JD did the annual, take it to DMax...

This way you are confident that you have done the best you can do with your money.  Unfortunately, there is still some risk with old machines... and minute omissions in the PPI process...

There are no standards for a PPI.  So be clear with who is doing the work, with what you are expecting to have done...

The best part is... when dealing with AAA, you are working with a very reputable group...

You still want to have a PPI... Because quirky expensive things can happen to a plane within a year of it being inspected last, regardless of who did the inspection.

PP thoughts only, not a sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

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I bought From All American earlier this year. I was given a list of shops to do the pre-purchase and I called around to decide which one. The annual was done on the field at Kestrel and while his name was on the PPI list, Jimmy suggested to go elsewhere believing that it was better to get a different opinion then the shop who performed the annual. I still think AAA did right by me with the whole purchase process.

In addition there are different levels of pre-purchase inspections. Usually the price coincides with the thoroughness of the inspection. With these older airplanes you normally get what you pay for. Back handed way of saying if you go cheap on this you will probably find some unexpected fixes down the road.

Brian

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2 hours ago, steingar said:

Best is if the mechanic who's going to take care of the airplane does the prepurchase inspection.  It can save on nasty surprises down the road.

good logic but not always the best choice. you need to have some one who is an expert on Mooneys doing the PPI. if the person who is going to be doing the maintenance fits that description then great.

Brian

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Just now, orionflt said:

good logic but not always the best choice. you need to have some one who is an expert on Mooneys doing the PPI. if the person who is going to be doing the maintenance fits that description then great.

Brian

Maybe, though I don't think our airplanes are made of pixie dust or anything.  I think any reasonably competent mechanic who's been in the game awhile will have worked on Mooneys.

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Just now, steingar said:

Maybe, though I don't think our airplanes are made of pixie dust or anything.  I think any reasonably competent mechanic who's been in the game awhile will have worked on Mooneys.

I know many competent mechanics who I would be fine having work on my Mooney but who do not know enough about the overall aircraft to do a comprehensive prebuy.  they would do a good job but could miss some important and costly items because the do not do in depth work on them. 

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Yeah, good mechanics are good mechanics. But an A&P who's worked primarily on Mooneys and has seen dozens of them, or hundreds of them, will know exactly where to look for common but unique to Mooney issues. I see Mooneys come into JD's shop all the time where other A&P's have worked on them and missed stuff that seems obvious to a Mooney shop. Nothing against the other shop, but if they only work on the occasional Mooney, they just don't know the common problems and can therefore miss things.

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Dugosh in Kerrville is also an option with AAA.  I purchased from them and had my PPI done there.  Of course, check the logbooks--Dave Behrens at Dugosh had installed a rebuilt engine in mine 4 years before, but I didn't realize he was at Dugosh, so technically it would have been smarter for me to go to SWTA or Don Maxwell.  In the end, I think it was okay since the rebuild was 4 years prior, and Dave Behrens was great taking the time to explain his findings over the phone for an hour.

I should add that Dugosh is a Mooney Service Center that happens to be based at the same airport as the current Mooney factory.  Not having known about Mooneyspace at the time, that was probably the knee jerk reason I chose them :rolleyes:

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19 hours ago, Mr. T said:

Looking at a vintage M20 for sale at All American Aviation who I understand to be one of the "big dogs" in the Mooney resale market.

Who could I use for a pre-purchase inspection for one of their aircraft? Do I just use "their guy" even though conventional wisdom says never use the seller's A&P? I gather they're a very reputable dealer but my gut says I'd be better off to use someone from outside -- yet my brain says if there is an "outside" guy, he's probably done dozens and dozens of PPIs for plane sold by All American and probably isn't really as "outside" as you might think.

The plane I'm looking at is due for an annual so it makes sense to have that done in lieu of a less-thorough PPI.

For folks who've bought a plane at All American - who did your PPI / Annual? Why did you choose that path?

As others have pointed out, there are a number of very experienced Mooney shops in Texas to choose from.  

I would point out that an Annual can be less thorough than a PPI.  During an Annual one may only need to pull certain inspection panels as directed by the manufacturer, people here talk about Annuals in which the entire engine cowl isn’t removed.  When I do PPI I open every panel that can be opened,  you’d  hate have your inspection done to Annual standards only to find the wing spar rotten in another area later.

Clarence

Edited by M20Doc
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3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

As others have pointed out, there are a number of very experienced Mooney shops in Texas to choose from.  

I would point out that an Annual can be less thorough than a PPI.  During an Annual one may only need to pull certain inspection panels as directed by the manufacturer, people here talk about Annuals in which the entire engine cowl isn’t removed.  When I do PPI I open every panel that can be opened,  you’d  hate have your inspection done to Annual standards only to find the wing spar rotten in another area later.

Clarence

This is so true.

What you're looking for is a shop with particular expertise in vintage Mooneys AND a proprietor who will treat the PPI as if he was buying the airplane himself. Everyone can make mistakes and miss things. But this is truly your best chance of buying a good Mooney.

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I bought a couple of months ago from AAA and had "their" guy on the field do the PPI, it had two more months on the annual so I had him do the annual while it was still open from the PPI. I have no regrets.

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Bummer alert...

Congrats, Wayne... But don’t celebrate too early... :)

 

How this works....

Regrets occur when you have your first annual after the purchasing exercise... and you get the 10amu bill for something that got missed...

It takes waiting a year to pout or celebrate how well the purchasing exercise went.

 

The independent PPI is a method people use to minimize the various types of risk associated with the purchasing process.

There is nothing wrong with ‘their guy’...   there is just something better having independent eyes doing the work for you...

 

You will probably do very well... AAA is expert about buying Mooneys before selling them again...

When you can, post a pic of the new 2U J in your avatar! :)

 

Best regards,

-a-

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The Bravo I bought was in annual when it was time to do a PPI. It was at a MSC it’s never been to before and I happened to know the MSC owners. I trusted them as a service center to do a thorough annual and didn’t do a separate PPI. They knew Mooney’s and gave me their personal opinion which I trusted. 

First annual after sale will be the test of time. No regrets so far. 

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Just to make things 100% clear, the shop on the field is not 'my guy'. I got out of maintenance in 2001 and I have been a happier man ever since. Fisher is the local guy that is being referred to and he is 100% independent. He even told me to take some of my work somewhere else last week because he didn't have time for me. He takes care of my personal plane and quite a few other local area Mooney guys because he does know Mooneys better than most anyone else in the immediate area and for me personally, I can corner him to figure something out when I have a problem. I recommend him along with some other shops in the area because I know he knows the Mooney airframe. I also recommend him because I can stay on top of getting everything completed. If there is a major item discovered early, I can be there immediately to inspect and alert all parties of the issue. That being said, I normally don't deny taking planes to other places, within reason. I refused a Weber prebuy last week. It didn't make sense in that case and outside of a few instances I can think of, it probably never makes sense to take plane 1000nm away. There is a cost in going to the other places. Some costs are not so much, some are fairly expensive. I have to hire a pilot, sometimes two. I have to get the first pilot back to home base (chase plane <i.e. the reason for the second pilot> or airline ticket) and then reverse the process. I don't generally argue the findings of airworthiness with any of the folks around that know Mooneys. Sometimes I do question some stuff if I get the feeling that they are just winging it. And I do have a few shops that I will not darken their doorstep. I also welcome buyers to bring their mechanics in to our place if they want to. But I don't have a guy.

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I bought my plane through AA and used Maxwell for the PPI.  I would go a different route for the PPI if I had it to do again.  I can elaborate privately.  Don's shop found some things but they missed a whole lot of things too.  Some that turned out to be pretty obvious and some that turned out to be really expensive.  Don is great.  He's a real asset to the community and I'm a fan for things that he himself is doing.  But I don't know how much wrenching he does himself or directly oversees anymore. 

The other thing to ask about is timing.  My PPI took what seemed like forever to complete.  I think it was about a month to do the prebuy and maybe two more weeks to complete the repairs.  That did include sending some parts out so that part is probably about right.

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I went through AAA and used Dugosh(pre-buy and upgraded to an annual) since the previous annual was Don Maxwell. No unexpected problems that the PPI would have found unless I had a cylinder pulled, in hindsight since there was some engine work done since the last overhaul, I probably should have had a cylinder pulled. 

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