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GTX 345R GTN650 Loss of Comms


M20C_AV8R

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Question for the collective mind. Despite my numerous google searches, I could not find a reasonable answer to the following, I welcome your feedback.

My plane is undergoing an avionics upgrade. In my panel/radio stack, I have a KMA-24 (keeping that for now), underneath that will be a new GTN650 replacing my GNS430 non WAAS, below that is a KX-165 and underneath that a standard BK mode C xpdr is being replaced with a GTX 345.

While the shop installed the GTN 650 just fine, the GTX 345 would not fit in the panel, there is no room to cut metal on top or bottom to adjust, and the only room I have on the right is not an ideal place to put the transponder, (top right), the shop has proposed to me using the GTX 345r as an alternate and installing it in the back of the plane.  I am already putting in the FlightStream 210 so I can get AHRS, ADSB to Foreflight on the iPad, but, I do now doubt connext will work.

My main concern now that the 345r will directly connect and be managed through the GTN650 interface, I ponder what would happen if the GTN650 fails on me in flight?

1. Will the 345r still transmit the current code?

2. Will it revert to 7600, (FYI, I ended up keeping the non-WAAS 430 in the stack for Second Comms/GPS and am having the KX-165 yellow tagged and will sell so I can still talk to ATC)

3. Will it just go off the air

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10 minutes ago, M20C_AV8R said:

Question for the collective mind. Despite my numerous google searches, I could not find a reasonable answer to the following, I welcome your feedback.

My plane is undergoing an avionics upgrade. In my panel/radio stack, I have a KMA-24 (keeping that for now), underneath that will be a new GTN650 replacing my GNS430 non WAAS, below that is a KX-165 and underneath that a standard BK mode C xpdr is being replaced with a GTX 345.

While the shop installed the GTN 650 just fine, the GTX 345 would not fit in the panel, there is no room to cut metal on top or bottom to adjust, and the only room I have on the right is not an ideal place to put the transponder, (top right), the shop has proposed to me using the GTX 345r as an alternate and installing it in the back of the plane.  I am already putting in the FlightStream 210 so I can get AHRS, ADSB to Foreflight on the iPad, but, I do now doubt connext will work.

My main concern now that the 345r will directly connect and be managed through the GTN650 interface, I ponder what would happen if the GTN650 fails on me in flight?

1. Will the 345r still transmit the current code?

2. Will it revert to 7600, (FYI, I ended up keeping the non-WAAS 430 in the stack for Second Comms/GPS and am having the KX-165 yellow tagged and will sell so I can still talk to ATC)

3. Will it just go off the air

Why not  just put the 345 in the top right if there is space?  It can be controlled either by the GTN 650 or the Transponder itself.  That is the best of both worlds. I have my GTX 335 on the far right.  I've never set in a code with it, but it has some nice features so I got it instead of the remote.   I also have both the FS 510 and the FS 210 and can use both with Connext, so you shouldn't have problem.

You should eliminate the way out of date KMA 24 in favor of a more modern audio panel like the GMA 350 or PMA 450.  They aren't that expensive and will transform your audio experience.

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5 hours ago, donkaye said:

Why not  just put the 345 in the top right if there is space?  It can be controlled either by the GTN 650 or the Transponder itself.  That is the best of both worlds. I have my GTX 335 on the far right.  I've never set in a code with it, but it has some nice features so I got it instead of the remote.   I also have both the FS 510 and the FS 210 and can use both with Connext, so you shouldn't have problem.

You should eliminate the way out of date KMA 24 in favor of a more modern audio panel like the GMA 350 or PMA 450.  They aren't that expensive and will transform your audio experience.

I plan on doing the pma450 in 2020, I’d rather spend the dollars first on a new autopilot. I spoke to the avionics shop they are going to reassess if they can get it in the right side of the panel, I want the xpdr up in the cockpit, but, if not,  looks like I’m going the 345 remote route and still leaves me wanting to know what happens if the 650 resets or fails in flight and how that impacts the xpdr

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5 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

Might be a better idea to keep the transponder in the panel and use the remote audio panel if you’re worried about that. FS510 might make more sense than the 210 if your already getting AHRS through the 345. 

I have a GTN 750/650 so either one will control the transponder.

Appreciate the feedback I’ll talk with my avionics shop to make sure I’m getting the expected integration, I primarily care most about transferring flight plans, the remainder is a nice to have, but, welcome a different perspective.

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27 minutes ago, M20C_AV8R said:

 still leaves me wanting to know what happens if the 650 resets or fails in flight and how that impacts the xpdr

Garmin gives guidance on how these things are handled... mostly because these are the first questions potential customers ask...

These failure modes and expectations go pretty far back in GA history, from the first two boxes that got linked together...

An example of this is what happens when the audio panel fails... how do I broadcast my message..?

Expect some level of safety to be designed into the system.

 

Unfortunately, there is a lot of reading, understanding, and memorizing to go with that...

Look at it the sunny side way... at least you recognize the challenge of integrating technology and remote mounting it...

Think of the pilots trying to understand this after the failure... without your insight.

 

The other thing you can see around MS, is every failure that has ever happened to their nav/com equipment...

The search function works pretty well.  If there is a failure of critical equipment, it will be pretty easy to find.

 

Make sure you get a decent shop to do your install... they have to follow the install instructions to get the expected performance.

The reason this stuff works so well, is the reason why it costs so much...

and then...

Even the single boxes, that aren’t integrated, fail over time... that is why we have back-ups and plans B and C...

Enjoy the reading.  There will be more failure modes than you can imagine... but they are well documented because somebody got paid to find and document them...  :)

We have a few MSers that have amazing memories... they love electronic devices... and enjoy reading manuals... and share their knowledge around here...

I’m not one of them... I have to rely on the experts for this kind of stuff.

Read any thread related to Aspens or G500s... hundreds of wires, all integrated with everything... remote mounting won’t make any additional challenges that aren’t there already...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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I'm with Don Kaye. My xponder is in the right panel just above the right yoke but I normally control it through the GTN 750.

And I second the recommendation for the FS510 to get the wifi/bluetooth between the 750 and phone/tablet. Data for the GTN is updated from the phone or tablet vis Garmin Pilot Connext.

IMG_20180720_104754102_HDR.jpg

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9 hours ago, M20C_AV8R said:

I plan on doing the pma450 in 2020, I’d rather spend the dollars first on a new autopilot. I spoke to the avionics shop they are going to reassess if they can get it in the right side of the panel, I want the xpdr up in the cockpit, but, if not,  looks like I’m going the 345 remote route and still leaves me wanting to know what happens if the 650 resets or fails in flight and how that impacts the xpdr

I love having the transponder back in the tail. It's less clutter in the panel. If the head unit fails, the transponder will continue to squawk the same code. The only issue is you won't be able to change the transponder code. It's very unlikely my GPS head unit will fail. But if it did, it's not the end of the world. The transponder continues to work.

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I have the transponder in the main stack primarily because it has a user interface for TIS-B/FIS-B in addition to the transponder functions. I have a remote ident function on the yoke, so only the setting of the code is needed. 

IMG_0554.thumb.JPG.77832e231490b1ffceba2058fa8f1c66.JPG

Prior to the Lynx being added, I had a GT-327 that I could control both from the GTN an on it's own display. I liked that redundancy as well.

DSCF0067.thumb.JPG.d31741cb5d497ed44cc197f8ebaf101b.JPG

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Despite my avionics shops efforts, there is no place on the right side to fully get the xpdr in there, so remote it is. Basically in the panel will be the KMA24 on top, the 650 below, and then the 430 on the bottom. Talked with the Avionics shop and the Flight Stream 210 will still meet the mission just fine, but I can see why the strong recommend for the 510. 

Also, thank you Paul @gsxrpilot for the feedback on the xpdr being remote, it bugs me a bit not having a per se separate control interface, but, also believe the risk is lower than what I first thought in regards to the 650 going blank and how an in flight issue with this tech could be managed.

Maybe in 2020 I will replace the 430 with another 650 or 635 so I have two interfaces into the xpdr, as well hoping to potentially do a comm upgrade at the same time. After this upgrade the next things in 2019 are a fuel tank reseal on the left side and hoping TruTrak will finally get their AP approved for install so I can ditch the Century IIB.

 

Edited by M20C_AV8R
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6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I love having the transponder back in the tail. It's less clutter in the panel. If the head unit fails, the transponder will continue to squawk the same code. The only issue is you won't be able to change the transponder code. It's very unlikely my GPS head unit will fail. But if it did, it's not the end of the world. The transponder continues to work.

Exactly.  I put the 345r transponder in the tail and keep it out of the panel. If your big box GPS fails the transponder is the least of your worries

A66ACDA6-B29B-47FD-98E5-B4408FA84E3D.jpeg

Edited by jetdriven
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14 hours ago, Stanton R said:

Unless you already bought the FS 210 or are getting it used, the FS 510 will be less cost($0 installation cost or extra Circuit Breaker). You can order the the 650 without a data card saving ~$450. The 510 also has the database concierge (super easy to use) 

I had already purchased the 210, great points for having gone with the 510 though and I believe they have already wired up the 210 in the plane.

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On 12/8/2018 at 6:25 PM, Browncbr1 said:

I went through the same conundrum.   I could fit a 345 on the right side, but I want to keep that space for iPad and other goodies.  I opted for a trig tt22 that fits on the pilot side right above mag switch.  Nice economical unit.  

Nice way to go about it, wouldn’t mind seeing a picture of that in your panel, others might benefit as well. So little space we have to work with.

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