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High Performance Endorsement


skydvrboy

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So this may be a stupid question, but I haven't been able to find a good answer.  Maybe one of the many CFI's on here can help me out.  What training will be required to get a high performance rating endorsement? 

I know what the regs say "Receive and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high performance airplane..."  My question is more around what am I going to learn about operating a 210 or 230 hp engine that I don't already know from operating my 200 hp Mooney?

Edited by skydvrboy
midlifeflyer busting my balls
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What a CFI will require for a high performance endorsement (not rating, at least in the US) depends on the airplane you are going from to the airplane you are going to. There is a difference between going from a Cessna 152 to a 310 HP Cirrus (a lot) and going from a Mooney 201 to a Cessna 182 (not much). Most HP transitions also tend to be part of a checkout, so there may well be artificially-imposed time requirements.

Edited by midlifeflyer
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1 hour ago, skydvrboy said:

So this may be a stupid question, but I haven't been able to find a good answer.  Maybe one of the many CFI's on here can help me out.  What training will be required to get a high performance rating endorsement? 

I know what the regs say "Receive and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high performance airplane..."  My question is more around what am I going to learn about operating a 210 or 230 hp engine that I don't already know from operating my 200 hp Mooney?

There's no set curriculum or performance standards required for an endorsement, so it is truly up to the CFI in question. 

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Good point about the insurance thing.  I have a good friend a few hangars down who flies a Cherokee 6, often solo for work.  Meanwhile, I occasionally want to take my parents along with my two kids for trips.  We were kicking around the idea of swapping time in each other's planes when the mission dictates.   He'll need the complex endorsement and I'll need the high performance.  We discussed adding each other to our insurance, but didn't think about any insurance required dual time.

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I think when people step up to these things part of the training is getting used to the world going by that much quicker.  Flying Mooneys we're already used to that.  I suspect if any of us were to go for that endorsement it wouldn't take long, and most of the training would center around the increased P factor.

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10 minutes ago, steingar said:

I think when people step up to these things part of the training is getting used to the world going by that much quicker.  Flying Mooneys we're already used to that.  I suspect if any of us were to go for that endorsement it wouldn't take long, and most of the training would center around the increased P factor.

I got the HP endorsement one year concurrent with my Flight Review. Didn't notice the C182 climbed any better than my M20-C, didn't go as fast, was incredibly easy to slow down on approach. Don't recall much acceleration on descent. Did use a little more rudder at full throttle but not a lot more. Then again, my C has a 3-blade Hartzell on the nose. 

Easy peasy. Go for it.

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1 hour ago, Bryan said:

Turbo management.  

Don't think so. The definition of high performance is now "an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower." Turbo is not a factor, just the hp is.

Complex calls for retract and variable pitch, so there also Turbo is not required.

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1) Two things come to mind...

2) You learn that the M20J has more than 200hp on some days... even though the book value says 200hp.

You learn that Transition Training in a new to you aircraft has more detail than just the added HP endorsement.

Operating a turbo Mooney into the FLs is worth getting the TT... dot all the i(s) and cross all the T(s).... include proper use of O2, measuring your O2, recognizing O2 issues... safety issues of O2... TUC...

See What your insurance company says.  Often there is a discount for some training... 

Best regards,

-a-

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1 hour ago, skydvrboy said:

Good point about the insurance thing.  I have a good friend a few hangars down who flies a Cherokee 6, often solo for work.  Meanwhile, I occasionally want to take my parents along with my two kids for trips.  We were kicking around the idea of swapping time in each other's planes when the mission dictates.   He'll need the complex endorsement and I'll need the high performance.  We discussed adding each other to our insurance, but didn't think about any insurance required dual time.

Your insurance policies each likely has an open pilot warranty that will require a specific amount of make and model time, among other things.  Check to be sure so that your policy protects you when someone else is flying your plane.  And if any questions, be sure to ask your agent.

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29 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Your insurance policies each likely has an open pilot warranty that will require a specific amount of make and model time, among other things.  Check to be sure so that your policy protects you when someone else is flying your plane.  And if any questions, be sure to ask your agent.

If it's going to be a switcheroo between two owners, as described, it's generally better to be named as an approved pilot on each other's policies. It's a little cleaner and the time in type requirements tend to be less than the Open Pilot Warranty, sometimes significantly. Open Pilot requirements are based on an unknown Joe Pilot. Approved pilot requirements  are based on the individual pilot's history and experience. 

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4 hours ago, skydvrboy said:

So this may be a stupid question, but I haven't been able to find a good answer.  Maybe one of the many CFI's on here can help me out.  What training will be required to get a high performance rating endorsement? 

I know what the regs say "Receive and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high performance airplane..."  My question is more around what am I going to learn about operating a 210 or 230 hp engine that I don't already know from operating my 200 hp Mooney?

IMO its much more along thorough transition training than the actual required HP endorsement. What I mean by that is that the airframe you do it in will dictate most of it. You won't get nearly the same (transition) training if you did your HP endorsement in a new SR20 or C182 compared to if you did it in any turbo or big bore engine. But if one is really looking to pull out of their transition training what the HP portion is, then @Bryan is right on for a new Turbo pilot, but it can probably be more generalized as "heat management" for most HP. 

But hopefully its much more than that, for example the engine emergency procedures don't get any more complicated than on turbo engines and it would be a real shame, especially in a turbo checkout, to not go through the emergency procedures and engine limitations so that the pilot understand what they're doing and why. Turbo HP checkouts should also include O2 requirements and use and that includes any longbody with a built in O2 system. But much more than trainer checkouts, the HP checkout should have a strong emphasis on engine management through all flight profiles which is a challenge since most checkouts don't get up very high. 

So think of it more as transition training specifically tailored to the airframe you are getting it in. It's just that only the first plane you do so in above 200HP will require the endorsement, but all the subsequent planes you do it in will still need comparable training tailored to what you really need in each new airframe. 

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I guess according to the regulations I have time in a C182 before 1995 or something like that so technically I do not need an endorsement for higher HP.  However, it would depend on the insurance co.

I do fly a helicopter with  a turbine engine with 400SHP de-rated to 277HP so does that count?  Left pedal, left pedal :o

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9 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

it's generally better to be named as an approved pilot on each other's policies.

This is what we had discussed doing, but will both still need to meet any time in type requirements.

 

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Operating a turbo Mooney into the FLs is worth getting the TT

Transition would be into a Cherokee 6 with a 300 hp engine, so no turbo, no O2, etc.  I did my primary training in the same Cherokee Warrior that the Cherokee 6 owner learned in and he claims it was a pretty easy transition.

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1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Your insurance policies each likely has an open pilot warranty that will require a specific amount of make and model time, among other things.  Check to be sure so that your policy protects you when someone else is flying your plane.  And if any questions, be sure to ask your agent.

And if your flying someone elses' plane under the open pilot warranty, make sure that there is a clause in the policy to prevent the carrier from subrogating their potential losses against you if something does go pear shaped, or have a non owned policy that will protect your (ass)etts.

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2 hours ago, Robert C. said:

Don't think so. The definition of high performance is now "an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower." Turbo is not a factor, just the hp is.

Complex calls for retract and variable pitch, so there also Turbo is not required.

My comment was directed at “what am I going to learn different by getting training in a 210/230 HP Mooney vs. a 200hp Mooney”

My response was the turbo... because all of them are 200+ but as @kortopates points out, it’s really heat management. I agree. Even the NA birds are is more need of Heat Management.

You are right, according to the regs, the endorsement doesn’t specify what type is required.

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46 minutes ago, steingar said:

I wouldn't mind getting the endorsement, but I don't really need it.  I plan to my my M20c as long as I can.

Me, too!

I added the HP to a Flight Review just to do something different. Very draggy, easy to control, but turns were different--I had to remember to establish the bank angle then turn the yoke back to level. Remembering right rudder was easy, I do that now from runway to cruise anyway. 

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I got my PPL in a Cherokee. The CFI also owned a Comanche 250. The week after my Private check ride, he suggested we go up in the Comanche and get the HP/Complex endorsement in the logbook. It was quick, done, and I've not thought about it since then.

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For me, the biggest difference was learning to land a bigger, heavier, nose heavy plane.  The power management on final, and sometimes adding power in short final, is pretty different. 


But, I went from a 180 hp PA28 primary trainer to a 280 (now 310) hp M20R.  Not sure you'd see much difference between 200 hp and 210 hp but I supposed they have to put the line somewhere.  I don't recall anything specifically for the HP rating but it just sort of naturally happened as part of the transitioning training and BFR.
 

Edited by hypertech
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