LogBook entties needed after an overhauled engine as been installed

[Bob R]

 MY MOONEY m20E is roaring back to like after about 5-1/2 months after a prop strike. The engine is back and the prop is installed. We just have a few things to tie up and double sheck. Hope to do the test flight tomorrow (Wednesday) and the freaking flight on Thrsday.

My question has to do with the logbooks. As I ammuming correctly I need to, at a minimum, have an endorsement in the logbokso the aircraft is cleared for test flight by the AP.

Please advise whqt you have used in the past to cover the minimum required by the instance company

 

Thanks for your help, Bob

[DVA]

 MY MOONEY m20E is roaring back to like after about 5-1/2 months after a prop strike.

 

My question has to do with the logbooks. As I ammuming correctly I need to, at a minimum, have an endorsement in the logbokso the aircraft is cleared for test flight by the AP.

 

Hi Bob,

 

The only entry required is about the work performed which your AP will do. Common legal advice and most shop insurance states that the mechanics shall not fly “test flights”. The lawyers hate that phrase because none of us pilots or APs are actually test pilots. The proper and more accepted term is “return to service flight” if you choose to even make that optional entry.

 

At my shop, our insurance specially states that our mechanics are not allowed to fly customers aircraft “alone” as PIC in the course of their work. As the shop owner, I will always fly with a customer in a first flight after a major repair to show them confidence in our work. It’s good business but there’s no FAA requirement to do so. Nor is there a requirement to perform or log a “test flight” or “return to service” flight after any repair.

 

You, as the owner and/or PIC, are the sole responsible party to determine airworthiness before you fly.

 

So in the end, all you need is the log book entry that describes the repair in sufficient detail per part 43.

 

Safe flying!

DVA

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1964-M20E]

While this may not be required hopefully you have a detailed listing of all parts in the engine along with any part numbers and serial numbers that may be present regardless the part was reused or new.   Usually reconditioned parts will have yellow tags and new parts will have some form of paperwork with them and these are usually kept with the log books for future reference.

The only reason I say this is if an AD comes out later you already know what is inside your engine and just might save you form having to pull a cylinder or something else just to verify an AD.   I have not had the pleasure of overhauling an aircraft engine yet but I plan on doing this when I do.

 

Good luck with the new engine.

 

[mike_elliott]

The rule that covers maintenance signoffs for aircraft operated under Part 91 is FAR 43.9. This important rule sets the requirements for the recording of maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding and alterations. It states that on the completion of the work, you must make out a maintenance record that has at least the following information:

1. A description of, or reference to, acceptable data used to perform the work.
2. The date you finished the work.
3. Name of the person who performed the work, if other than the person who approved the work for return to service.
4. Name, certificate number, kind of certificate and signature of the person approving the work for return to service.

Even if a certificated person doesn’t actually write in the aircraft’s log that the component worked on is “approved for return to service,” FAR 43.9 (4) says when the maintenance entry is signed, that person’s signature constitutes the “approval for return to service.”

[jaylw314]

Note section (b).  While the only required documentation for return to service is the A&P signature according to FAR 43.9, according to FAR 91.407 (b) you must complete a test flight and document it BEFORE carrying any passengers.  After I had a new prop installed, for example, I recorded in the maintenance log "Test flight completed according to FAR 91.407 (b) after installation of new propeller, ops check ok" and signed it. 

 

§ 91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.

(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless -

(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under § 43.7 of this chapter; and

(2) The maintenance record entry required by § 43.9 or § 43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made.

(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.

[salty]

4 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

While this may not be required hopefully you have a detailed listing of all parts in the engine along with any part numbers and serial numbers that may be present regardless the part was reused or new.   Usually reconditioned parts will have yellow tags and new parts will have some form of paperwork with them and these are usually kept with the log books for future reference.

The only reason I say this is if an AD comes out later you already know what is inside your engine and just might save you form having to pull a cylinder or something else just to verify an AD.   I have not had the pleasure of overhauling an aircraft engine yet but I plan on doing this when I do.

 

Good luck with the new engine.

 

This is a huge advantage of doing the overhaul myself. I have a huge notebook dedicated to the overhaul with every part number and serial number for every part I bought and every yellow tag or 8130. Much better documentation than you’d get from an overhaul shop. 

My IA did an entry in the airframe log for engine removal and another for installation, an entry in the engine log describing the overhaul work, and an entry in the prop log for that work. 

I was toward the end of all the logbooks so I took the opportunity to start new books for all 3. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by salty

[mike_elliott]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Note section (b).  While the only required documentation for return to service is the A&P signature according to FAR 43.9, according to FAR 91.407 (b) you must complete a test flight and document it BEFORE carrying any passengers.  After I had a new prop installed, for example, I recorded in the maintenance log "Test flight completed according to FAR 91.407 (b) after installation of new propeller, ops check ok" and signed it. 

 

§ 91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.

(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless -

(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under § 43.7 of this chapter; and

(2) The maintenance record entry required by § 43.9 or § 43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made.

(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.

Does 43.7 require an additional log entry or just be approved for return to service by a person authorized? While I cannot see how it would hurt to have it, I dont see where it is a required log entry, just an approval.

[EricJ]

30 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Does 43.7 require an additional log entry or just be approved for return to service by a person authorized? While I cannot see how it would hurt to have it, I dont see where it is a required log entry, just an approval.

43.7 doesn't require any log entries, it just indicates who is authorized to approve return to service.   The signature by the authorized person in the logbook entry indicated in 43.9 provides the return to service authorization.

[jaylw314]

40 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Does 43.7 require an additional log entry or just be approved for return to service by a person authorized? While I cannot see how it would hurt to have it, I dont see where it is a required log entry, just an approval.

The "return to service" is just by the A&P signature (or IA for an annual).  The requirement for a logged "test flight" by a private pilot is required prior to carrying PASSENGERS, but the airplane would still be legal to fly solo based on the mechanic's signature (and kind of required for the test flight anyway).

[Bob R]

All,

Thank you for all of the solid advice. Logs are being done tonight so the "Return to Service" flight will be tomorrow or Friday, weather permitting.

 

Bob

P.S. Sorry about the original post. That will teach me to post from my phone as it seems to not have a grasp on the English language.

[Andy95W]

10 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Note section (b).  While the only required documentation for return to service is the A&P signature according to FAR 43.9, according to FAR 91.407 (b) you must complete a test flight and document it BEFORE carrying any passengers.  After I had a new prop installed, for example, I recorded in the maintenance log "Test flight completed according to FAR 91.407 (b) after installation of new propeller, ops check ok" and signed it. 

 

§ 91.407 Operation after maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration.

(a) No person may operate any aircraft that has undergone maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration unless -

(1) It has been approved for return to service by a person authorized under § 43.7 of this chapter; and

(2) The maintenance record entry required by § 43.9 or § 43.11, as applicable, of this chapter has been made.

(b) No person may carry any person (other than crewmembers) in an aircraft that has been maintained, rebuilt, or altered in a manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight until an appropriately rated pilot with at least a private pilot certificate flies the aircraft, makes an operational check of the maintenance performed or alteration made, and logs the flight in the aircraft records.

 

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

The "return to service" is just by the A&P signature (or IA for an annual).  The requirement for a logged "test flight" by a private pilot is required prior to carrying PASSENGERS, but the airplane would still be legal to fly solo based on the mechanic's signature (and kind of required for the test flight anyway).

Jay @jaylw314-  I disagree with your conclusion that you needed to do a test flight after an engine overhaul, or, in your case, after the installation of your new propeller.  I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, and I would do it myself, but it isn't required and doesn't need to be logged.

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14 CFR 91.407 continues to another subparagraph, c:

(c) The  aircraft does not have to be flown as required by  paragraph (b) of this section if, prior to flight, ground tests, inspection, or both show conclusively that the  maintenance,  preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration has not appreciably changed the flight characteristics or substantially affected the flight operation of the aircraft.

----------------------

So therefore simply installing an overhauled engine or propeller would not require a test flight because it would not have appreciably changed the flight characteristics or affected the flight operation.  Installing a completely different propeller would be different, of course.

As I said above, I would still do a test flight, I just don't see that it is required to be logged.

Or was there another interpretation or reference that I missed?

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

 

Jay @jaylw314-  I disagree with your conclusion that you needed to do a test flight after an engine overhaul, or, in your case, after the installation of your new propeller.  I'm not saying it isn't a good idea, and I would do it myself, but it isn't required and doesn't need to be logged.

---------------------

14 CFR 91.407 continues to another subparagraph, c:

(c) The  aircraft does not have to be flown as required by  paragraph (b) of this section if, prior to flight, ground tests, inspection, or both show conclusively that the  maintenance,  preventive maintenance, rebuilding, or alteration has not appreciably changed the flight characteristics or substantially affected the flight operation of the aircraft.

----------------------

So therefore simply installing an overhauled engine or propeller would not require a test flight because it would not have appreciably changed the flight characteristics or affected the flight operation.  Installing a completely different propeller would be different, of course.

As I said above, I would still do a test flight, I just don't see that it is required to be logged.

Or was there another interpretation or reference that I missed?

I might agree with your argument if not for the phrase "maintained, rebuilt or altered...in a  manner that may have appreciably changed its flight characteristics or substantially affected its operation in flight."  That suggests the latter is not to be thought of as being limited only to alterations, but that they must consider some type of maintenance and rebuilds/overhauls to be substantial enough to require the test flight, even if they are not technically changes.

I suppose another way to look at it is that if you have a new engine or propeller installed, improper maintenance could substantially affect the flight characteristics of the aircraft, even if the installation itself is only a "minor repair."