Cessna 335 twin crashed on take off at KFXE today.

[Piloto]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That’s the biggest load of bullshit I have read all week. The 335 when it’s cleaned up, (with the gear up flaps up and banked into the operating engine)  will easily climb and fly on one engine. Anything less than that is poor technique.  

With an inflight fire, loss of aileron control on one wing is so far down on on the list of problems to deal with, it’s not even on the same page. 

What you indicated maybe right but I think the left engine failed just after achieving Vr leaving the C335 without power to accelerate. A difficult situation for the pilot at the end of the runway. Unless the plane has a pair of G-90s it is tough for a piston twin to recover in this situation.

José

[flyboy0681]

4 minutes ago, Piloto said:

What you indicated maybe right but I think the left engine failed just after achieving Vr leaving the C335 without power to accelerate. A difficult situation for the pilot at the end of the runway. Unless the plane has a pair of G-90s it is tough for a piston twin to recover in this situation.

José

Like I wrote earlier, a friend of mine witnessed an impromptu run up of the plane where he heard one of the engines popping and cutting off when brought back to idle. He thought it was so odd that the plane was headed to the runway that he waited for it to takeoff and reported that there was nothing unusual when it flew over. He was positioned on a ramp near taxiway Sierra, which as you know, is at the approach end of 27.

[aviatoreb]

21 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Like I wrote earlier, a friend of mine witnessed an impromptu run up of the plane where he heard one of the engines popping and cutting off when brought back to idle. He thought it was so odd that the plane was headed to the runway that he waited for it to takeoff and reported that there was nothing unusual when it flew over. He was positioned on a ramp near taxiway Sierra, which as you know, is at the approach end of 27.

Jose has the story all worked out and he's ready to write the NTSB report now.  So don't both him with information.

[Piloto]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I'd rather have an engine fire in a multi than a single. In a single you don't have to worry about the fire burning through the wing you have to worry about the fire burning through you.

Yea but where would you put that lighted Cuban Cigar in your mouth or your Mooney fuel tank?

José

[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Yea but where would you put that lighted Cuban Cigar in your mouth or your Mooney fuel tank?

José

Huh?

Not a big cigar fan.

[gsengle]

Just an engineer involved in the B777 fly by wire PFC and RDR-4 Radar design and flight testing (Convair 580). FAA certification experience per FAR Part 23, 25
José

So, none of the above? Lots of engineers here too.


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[steingar]

Wouldn't want to get into dutch flying out of FXE, I don't recall a lot of soft landing spots last time I took off from there.  A simple analysis of accident data reveals that in terms of fatal accidents twins aren't one whit safer than singles.  All you heroic perfect pilots can tell you all day how wrong I am, and how you've piloted twins since the dawn of time with no incident.  

[gsengle]

What you indicated maybe right but I think the left engine failed just after achieving Vr leaving the C335 without power to accelerate. A difficult situation for the pilot at the end of the runway. Unless the plane has a pair of G-90s it is tough for a piston twin to recover in this situation.

José

 

And that calls for abort on the runway straight ahead. Half or more is probably remaining depending on weight. It’s not a short runway if I recall.

 

 

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[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, Piloto said:

What you indicated maybe right but I think the left engine failed just after achieving Vr leaving the C335 without power to accelerate. A difficult situation for the pilot at the end of the runway. Unless the plane has a pair of G-90s it is tough for a piston twin to recover in this situation.

José

But the engine did not fail right at lift off. And even if it did, the plane is still flyable.

You seem to be lacking in basic airplane aerodynamics. Vr  speed is a jet term, and jet aircraft aerodynamics and the decision to reject or continue the takeoff is very different then a piston engine airplane. But here’s the deal. With a lightly loaded airplane like this, you accelerate to blueline airspeed then lift the nose and fly. If engine fails after liftoff, clean the aircraft up secure the failed engine and continue on. It will perform.

[Marauder]

Reading through this thread I have to believe with the disappearance of Peter Garmin, José, between his urinary disposal comments and this thread, is trying to fill a rather large void left by our very own Peter Garmin.


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[exM20K]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I'd rather have an engine fire in a multi than a single. In a single you don't have to worry about the fire burning through the wing you have to worry about the fire burning through you.

Actually, it's a really bad deal in a 300 or 400 series twin cessna.  there is a fuel line behind the engine (X-feed or aux - I don't remember) which cannot be shut off.  So in the Mooney, shut off the fuel, and the fire should go out.  In the Cessna, there is a real possibility of the fire continuing.  Of course, facing this sort of malfunction immediately after takeoff is a bad thing in either.

[N201MKTurbo]

30 minutes ago, exM20K said:

Actually, it's a really bad deal in a 300 or 400 series twin cessna.  there is a fuel line behind the engine (X-feed or aux - I don't remember) which cannot be shut off.  So in the Mooney, shut off the fuel, and the fire should go out.  In the Cessna, there is a real possibility of the fire continuing.  Of course, facing this sort of malfunction immediately after takeoff is a bad thing in either.

If it happens right after takeoff, at least there is an airport near by and you don't have to fly far with it on fire. Engine failures with multi's after takeoff is the worst case scenario. If you do the engine out stuff properly you should be OK, you just have to ignore the burning engine until you get it caged.  

That is a lot to ask of any pilot.

[N6018Q]

52 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Reading through this thread I have to believe with the disappearance of Peter Garmin, José, between his urinary disposal comments and this thread, is trying to fill a rather large void left by our very own Peter Garmin.


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Sorry, Marauder, don't want to start a "pi$$ing" match, but I think Jose is really mild compared to Peter.

[gsengle]

Actually, it's a really bad deal in a 300 or 400 series twin cessna.  there is a fuel line behind the engine (X-feed or aux - I don't remember) which cannot be shut off.  So in the Mooney, shut off the fuel, and the fire should go out.  In the Cessna, there is a real possibility of the fire continuing.  Of course, facing this sort of malfunction immediately after takeoff is a bad thing in either.

A 400 series Cessna has a crossfeed shut off. Engine fire is as follows:

Fuel pumps off, tanks main, crossfeed shut off pull, then for engine in question, throttle close, then mixture cut off (at my company before prop), prop feather, cowl flap close, fuel off, fly the airplane.


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[jetdriven]

14 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

A 400 series Cessna has a crossfeed shut off. Engine fire is as follows:

Fuel pumps off, tanks main, crossfeed shut off pull, then for engine in question, throttle close, then mixture cut off (at my company before prop), prop feather, cowl flap close, fuel off, fly the airplane.


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only the newest 400 series Cessnas have the fuel crossfeed shutoff. I think the bonded smooth wing models, such as the 421C, 414A, and 402C.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2018/Jan/140841/Cessna (Multiple Models), Exhaust System.pdf

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by jetdriven

[gsengle]

only the newest 400 series Cessnas have the fuel crossfeed shutoff. I think the bonded smooth wing models, such as the 421C, 414A, and 402C.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2018/Jan/140841/Cessna (Multiple Models), Exhaust System.pdf
 
 
 

Learn something new every day. That said by newest we mean since the late 70s


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[Piloto]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

But the engine did not fail right at lift off. And even if it did, the plane is still flyable.

Obviously this one was not flyable, why?

José 

[gsengle]

Obviously this one was not flyable, why?
José 

No again. All we know is that particular pilot didn’t succeed. We don’t know it wasn’t flyable.


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[Piloto]

27 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

only the newest 400 series Cessnas have the fuel crossfeed shutoff. I think the bonded smooth wing models, such as the 421C, 414A, and 402C.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2018/Jan/140841/Cessna (Multiple Models), Exhaust System.pdf

 

 

 

Good assessment. Not much a pilot can do in this case. The same happened on the twin Aerostars.

José

Edited December 4, 2018 by Piloto

[gsengle]

Good assessment.
José

Appears to be a 1980 which should have a crossfeed shut off, I believe.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/12/cessna-335-n79hp-fatal-accident.html


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[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, N6018Q said:

Sorry, Marauder, don't want to start a "pi$$ing" match, but I think Jose is really mild compared to Peter.

I noticed I haven't seen Peter G for a while.  Where did he go?  

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

 

Appears to be a 1980 which should have a crossfeed shut off, I believe.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2018/12/cessna-335-n79hp-fatal-accident.html


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Whats with the epaulets and wings on that sweater? That seems little odd..

[Marauder]

I noticed I haven't seen Peter G for a while.  Where did he go?  

Rumors have it he is camped out at the warehouse of Bendix King waiting for the loading dock door to open and the first KI-300 to roll out.


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[gsengle]

Whats with the epaulets and wings on that sweater? That seems little odd..

On the deceased pilot? Was it a commercial flight?


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[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

On the deceased pilot? Was it a commercial flight?


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Sometimes instructors in some more formal schools wear more military type pilot uniforms generally while in that school environment.