Cessna 335 twin crashed on take off at KFXE today.

[Bravoman]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

I disagree strongly.  This graph is not an example of anecdotal argument.  It may be many things but it is not an anecdote.  An anecdote suggests a single (or few) examples from which one draws grand (unfounded) generalizing conclusions.  That kind of mistake is indeed rife in the press but it is also common all around us.  Example: one twin jet engine airplane had a catastrophic loss of power due to birds and landed in the hudson and therefore all twins are unsafe.  However that shown about pirates and global temps is a graph that clearly has a lot of data behind it, so it is not an anecdote.  Instead it is an example of another classic mistake that correlation and causation are not synonymous. 

 

I see your point, but it sure is a fine line in a lot of examples and there is a lot of overlap.

[aviatoreb]

25 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

I see your point, but it sure is a fine line in a lot of examples and there is a lot of overlap.

I'm just arguing semantics.  Sorry I get all prickly sometimes about such things.  I'm not differing from the spirit of your reply.  Just the detail.  Anecdotes are individual presented stories.  Data is collected many samples from populations.  One can make mistakes and bad interpretations from either scenario but they are distinct.  Anyway take it from a math prof who got sort of prickly and no offense intended.

Edited December 3, 2018 by aviatoreb

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Piloto said:

The longest TBO for jet engines I heard was 6,000 hrs at the United MRO in SFO. Jet engines not only ingest birds but debris on the runway (pot holes rocks, bolts, plane parts, hail stones) also. This causes fan blade damage that it is expensive and cumbersome to repair. Runway debris ingestion is most common in underdeveloped countries. Most common on low wing mounted engines. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_between_overhauls

José

Here’s a thread with talk about a 40,000 hour Rolls Royce RB211 engine. Spent 10 years on wing. The earliest example of long run times I found was back in the late 70s they had an RB211 that was #2 on a Lockheed of a Lockheed Tristar that went 25,000 hours Back then.  

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=752847

https://www.rolls-royce.com/products-and-services/civil-aerospace/airlines/rb211-535e4.aspx#section-overview

Edited December 3, 2018 by jetdriven

[Andy95W]

Excellent post, Byron.  

You don't really think you're going to change Josè's mind, do you?  He's got a Wikipedia entry supporting his argument.

[Bravoman]

58 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I'm just arguing semantics.  Sorry I get all prickly sometimes about such things.  I'm not differing from the spirit of your reply.  Just the detail.  Anecdotes are individual presented stories.  Data is collected many samples from populations.  One can make mistakes and bad interpretations from either scenario but they are distinct.  Anyway take it from a math prof who got sort of prickly and no offense intended.

I minored in math so I know the mindset!

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, Bravoman said:

I minored in math so I know the mindset!

Yeah - thanks - thanks in advance for forgiving me my prickly insistence to use technical terms like these carefully.

HEY!  You minored in math!  What did you do when you grew up?  What was your major?

[Johnnybgoode]

On 12/2/2018 at 12:59 AM, Piloto said:

A C130 four engine an a crew of four had the same outcome on takeoff.

José 

https://media.defense.gov/2018/Nov/09/2002061699/-1/-1/0/180502-AMC-MUÑIZ AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE, PUERTO RICO-WC-C130H-AIB-NARRATIVE REPORT.PDF

 

Please don't use this case as an example of anything but how not to fly.

[thinwing]

Back to original 335 crash...Post reporter says pilot had license suspended in 1997.

[thinwing]

Plus 180 day suspension for flying IFR without IR rating...careless /reckless violations..FAA has no record of him ever getting his license back

[1964-M20E]

On 12/2/2018 at 3:29 PM, M20Doc said:

I would venture a guess that almost ALL airplane crashes, gear up landing etc had a pilot onboard the plane at the time of the accident.  This proves to me that pilots are the cause of all accidents.  

Clarence

That settles it with 2 pilots on board a plane is twice as likely to crash.

 

[flyboy0681]

Horrific video of the last moment. Local news broadcast the tower recordings and the pilot reported an engine was on fire and that he was turning back. He had just picked it up and was flying back to the northeast after having maintenance done down here.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-ne-fort-lauderdale-plane-crash-video-20181203-story.html

[Piloto]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Horrific video of the last moment. Local news broadcast the tower recordings and the pilot reported an engine was on fire and that he was turning back. He had just picked it up and was flying back to the northeast after having maintenance done down here.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-ne-fort-lauderdale-plane-crash-video-20181203-story.html

Very good video. An engine on fire next to a wing with full fuel can disable aileron controllability. Not to mention the amount of fuel that caused the fire. Twice that of a single.

José 

[gsengle]

Very good video. An engine on fire next to a wing with full fuel can disable aileron controllability. Not to mention the amount of fuel that caused the fire. Twice that of a single.
José 

Again wrong


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[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Horrific video of the last moment. Local news broadcast the tower recordings and the pilot reported an engine was on fire and that he was turning back. He had just picked it up and was flying back to the northeast after having maintenance done down here.

 

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/fort-lauderdale/fl-ne-fort-lauderdale-plane-crash-video-20181203-story.html

Oh that was just terrible.

The crash landing looked almost survivable if it weren't for immediately hitting a wall and the fire.

And the danger of those people in the building and the fire.  It was a heart stopper watching that horrible video.

[flyboy0681]

I just heard from a friend who has a tie down next to the taxiway where the plane headed on its way out to the runway. He said that they ran the engines up for a while and one of them kept "popping" and would die when the power was brought back. He said he was surprised to see the plane head for the runway given what he had heard. He did see the plane overhead during takeoff and said both engines sounded like they were producing power. He concluded by saying that a few minutes later he heard firetrucks heading to the area.

[exM20K]

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfxe/KFXE-Twr1-Dec-01-2018-1800Z.mp3 

22:55

Fire left engine 25:00

 

Horrible.

Edited December 4, 2018 by exM20K

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Very good video. An engine on fire next to a wing with full fuel can disable aileron controllability. Not to mention the amount of fuel that caused the fire. Twice that of a single.

José 

Are you suggesting that the fire burned through the aileron cables?  Do you even know where they are on a Cessna 335?  If the fire burned through the aileron cables, it would have burned through the firewall, the main wing spar, the main cross feed fuel lines between the tip tanks, then through the aft wing spar.  After all that if the wing stayed on by some miracle it might melt the aileron cables.

Clarence

[Piloto]

5 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Are you suggesting that the fire burned through the aileron cables?  Do you even know where they are on a Cessna 335?  If the fire burned through the aileron cables, it would have burned through the firewall, the main wing spar, the main cross feed fuel lines between the tip tanks, then through the aft wing spar.  After all that if the wing stayed on by some miracle it might melt the aileron cables.

Clarence

You do not need to burn the cables just jam the pulleys.

José

[Piloto]

Accident details

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=218856

Apparently the fall of the C335 was simply due to loss of power on left engine. Right engine alone could not sustain flight. So much for engine redundancy.

José

Edited December 4, 2018 by Piloto

[jrwilson]

So I think Jose is just trolling?  Slow day in Florida?  

[Bravoman]

8 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Yeah - thanks - thanks in advance for forgiving me my prickly insistence to use technical terms like these carefully.

HEY!  You minored in math!  What did you do when you grew up?  What was your major?

Majored in economics which still interests me to this day. Definitely the most quantitative of the social sciences. I think it is a great college major that prepares you well for lots of other things.

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, Piloto said:

Accident details

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=218856

Apparently the fall of the C335 was simply due to loss of power on left engine. Right engine alone could not sustain flight. So much for engine redundancy.

José

That’s the biggest load of bullshit I have read all week. The 335 when it’s cleaned up, (with the gear up flaps up and banked into the operating engine)  will easily climb and fly on one engine. Anything less than that is poor technique.  

With an inflight fire, loss of aileron control on one wing is so far down on on the list of problems to deal with, it’s not even on the same page. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by jetdriven

[gsengle]

Jose, do you have an A&P? Do you have your Multi? Or Commercial or ATP? Have you had an engine failure in a multi? Your compatriots here have / have had all of the above.


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[N201MKTurbo]

I'd rather have an engine fire in a multi than a single. In a single you don't have to worry about the fire burning through the wing you have to worry about the fire burning through you.

[Piloto]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

Jose, do you have an A&P? Do you have your Multi? Or Commercial or ATP? Have you had an engine failure in a multi? Your compatriots here have / have had all of the above.


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Just an engineer involved in the B777 fly by wire PFC and RDR-4 Radar design and flight testing (Convair 580). FAA certification experience per FAR Part 23, 25

José