Grounded... Repair Advice?

[CharlesHuddleston]

OK, so I'm saddened to report that I grounded my plane last week. Landing in the rain, at night, I feel like i carried too much speed into the landing, and after touching down a little long, tried to brake to slow down. My assumption is that the left brake either caught or locked, but the right didn't brake well or at all, and I yawed off the runway and hit a taxiway sign. Got a couple small dents in the leading edge of the left wing, the biggest one right on the stall warning vane. FAA paperwork, insurance adjuster, etc has been a little bit of a headache, but doesn't hurt near as bad as not being able to fly. Mechanic has it in the shop now, and is giving it a very thorough eval. His first reply was that it might be cheaper/easier to simply replace the whole wing with a salvage wing rather than re-skinning. I get his point, but at the same time, I have long-range tanks, and electric speed brakes that would have to be transferred. As long as all the measurements are square (no wing warping, etc), can you not simply pull the dent out and replace the stall warning system? 

I have read through the Service Maintenance Manual and it describes the structure of the wing and all the components, but I could find any recommendations regarding repairs. Appreciate any thought or guidance.

 

 

[mike_elliott]

Get in touch with Don Maxwell or JD Casteel. They can "buff" this out.

[Guest]

That really sucks, but I doubt that a new wing is in order.  A repair should be quite possible.

Clarence

[KSMooniac]

Agree with the above posts...swapping wings isn't needed but you'll have to re-skin that section, and it isn't as awful as it seems at first glance. Don or As JD or others will point you in the right direction.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[EricJ]

Previous owner of my airplane taxied it into a hangar.   The entire outboard section of one wing leading edge got reskinned and a rib replaced.   Other than a slight mismatch of the paint (mostly because they couldn't duplicate the 20-year oxidation of the rest of it), you'd never know by looking at it or flying it.

I'd think replacing the wing would be far more expensive and problematic and risky.

[carusoam]

Similar situation has come up before, when a Bravo hit a fence, losing control during a T/O run...

Pictures are around here somewhere...

Happened about three years ago...(?) repaired about two years ago...

There are a few shops and MSCs that have this kind of skill...

The NJ MSC has been known to have a spare wing in inventory...

Long range tanks, and speed brakes aren’t too hard to remount into a different wing.... they require following a procedure...

Realistically, it looks like only one piece of sheet metal has been damaged...  possibles ways to go...

• Sheet metal expert fixes it in place...
• Sheet metal expert removes damaged pieces and replaces with new or used parts...

When you call JD or DM be prepared to send them the pics, and ask details about getting the plane ferried for fixing it....

Good luck with the next steps...

Best regards,

-a-

[MB65E]

Just the one center skin is the only damage?

Once upon a time an M20 owner kicked the jbar in front of our shop’s hangar and it shoved the pitot tube thru the wing. My mentor and I drilled off the old skin, rolled it up in the back of a Cherokee. I flew it to Williams Airmotive in IN. At the time, The owner himself helped lay out a new skin. We Pre-drilled and  Rolled the LE with the bending tool they had. Flew it back to where the airplane was.  Installed the wing skin. We only had 3 cherry max rivets in the wing and all of the holes we pre-drilled lined up perfectly. I was shocked how well everything went. We 337’d and I did the test flight. Done!

We had the airplane on jacks, and built a jig for the wing. 

Dont change the wing! If you ordered a new skin from Mooney it probably wouldn’t fit, however you could argue there was no damage history as the P/N was changed. 

-Matt

[Guest]

With Mooney wing skins wrapping from trailing edge all the way around to trailing edge, it’s quite a job to replace.  Looking at the pictures you’ve posted, it looks like your wing is already filled with “aerodynamic filler”. I would consider cutting out and replacing a very small section of leading edge skin and splicing in a new piece and blending in new filler.

Mooney put much larger holes in the leading edge to allow a landing light, so this shouldn’t be a big deal.

Clarence

Edited November 30, 2018 by M20Doc

[Danb]

Hey Charles I recently was at DMax he had a few planes getting extensive repairs including one getting a new wing spar, I’d call don or Paul for advice, ask if it’s able to fly then let them fix it like new.

[MB65E]

16 minutes ago, Freemasm said:

 

 Careful here. From what I recall, the parts book I've seen shows the skins being heat treated after forming. Not an uncommon approach since a lighter gauge can then be utilized. Which I had the manuals available to know.  Can any real A&Ps on the forum verify this?  I guess what I'm saying to the thread originator is, utilize someone that knows Mooneys.

Good morning! Real A&P?

I’m sorry, the skins are heat treated.  However, they just are not stamped like the gear doors On the Mooney are. 

-Matt

A&P, IA 

[Yetti]

Might want to start sourcing a stall indicator.  That is going to be pricey.   While it does not seem like you should need it, since you rode over the taxiway sign, you want to check for wrinkling, bending in other parts of the wing.   If that checks out, hammer to fit paint to match.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Freemasm said:

Didn't make my point well. An unfortunate and common problem for me. Real A&P = not me. I'm an anal as F&*! engineer who tries to learn as much as I can from books, text, subject matter experts, people smarter than myself, etc. The related self-learning I did ~25 years back led me to understand the following:

- Parts, like skins, are often heat treated after forming to relieve the internal stresses associated with the forming process. The resulting, relieved parts are stronger in the areas adjacent to the cold formed/stress hardened areas and non-formed areas relative to the parts that weren't relieved through HT.  As mentioned, this is common so that lighter gauge sheets can be utilized in (semi or full) monocoque construction where the skin is a structural component.

- If a part is stamped or identified in the PB as "Heat Treated After Forming", it must be similarly treated. A typical field repair doesn't meet this requirement; thus, you have to buy the skins from the OEM.

As mentioned, I wish I had the PB available to see if I'm remembering that aforementioned part correctly. I have no problem being wrong. I should be used to it by now. I'd like to know if what I think I know to be correct is indeed so or what the correct info is.  

Much thx.

  

Why not just start with the manual for the airplane before hypothesizing?  To this unreal AME it appears to be run of the mill 2024T3 sheet aluminum.

Clarence

 

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Why not just start with the manual for the airplane before hypothesizing?  To this unreal AME it appears to be run of the mill 2024T3 sheet aluminum.

Clarence

 

Clarence rides to the rescue again!

And now I know why you go by "M20doc"--on this side of the border, AME = Aviation Medical Examiner, the nice guys who give us our medicals. I'm guessing it's Canadian for A&P/IA, eh? 

[gsxrpilot]

JD just finished one of these in his shop. Same section but the right wing. Give him a call.

www.swta.net

 

[carusoam]

Freemasm...

You have great technical skills.  But...

Your message is getting lost.

Try an approach that focuses on the issues, less on accidental barbs launched at random people that are trying to help...

People have a tendency to block you out when this happens.

Don’t let your message get lost...

it may take a little extra effort to proof read your post...  before or after you hit submit reply... 

Don’t be in a rush to post a barb back at me... I am just an engineer trying to help out... my writing skills are still in the development stage...

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

I’m curious how many would bondo and paint vs re skin the damaged sections?  An eagle for sale recently had a damaged wing like this (not as bad). For some reason they didn’t fix it.  I assume the buyer would not be able to claim this on their insurance and I would think the repairs would be very expensive. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Clarence rides to the rescue again!

And now I know why you go by "M20doc"--on this side of the border, AME = Aviation Medical Examiner, the nice guys who give us our medicals. I'm guessing it's Canadian for A&P/IA, eh? 

Transport Canada like many other countries title us with AME, Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.  Equivalent to A&P with Inspection Authorization.

AME licences for maintenance cover 2 main groupings, piston, glider, helicopter and turboprop, then large turbine usually above 12,500 gross weight.  Other categories cover avionics, propellers and structures.

Clarence

[N201MKTurbo]

2024-0 is non heat treated sheet. it can be formed to more complex shapes then T3 but must be heat treated after forming. The heat treat is 30 min at 900F and then immediate quench in water followed by reforming in its die to restore its shape after heat treat. This will bring it to the T3 strength. Too complex a process for little old Mooney.

I don't think there is any in the Mooney.

 

[Oldguy]

48 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Transport Canada like many other countries title us with AME, Aircraft Maintenance Engineer.  Equivalent to A&P with Inspection Authorization.

AME licences for maintenance cover 2 main groupings, piston, glider, helicopter and turboprop, then large turbine usually above 12,500 gross weight.  Other categories cover avionics, propellers and structures.

Clarence

I was thinking it was Awesome Mooney Engineer!!

[0TreeLemur]

I just gotta say- I got such a kick out of reading what you guys have typed in this thread.   Akin to being a fly on the wall at an aircraft design bureau...  Stuff that as a fluids guy I never think about any more.  Thanks to all.

[Pmaxwell]

Looks like it's only one skin in the picture and dent isn't deep enough to hurt any stringers and was between ribs. That skin is about 1k and takes about 45 hours to replace reseal and paint.  Stall switch bracket is probably busted and tab is obviously no good. Probably looking at 5k-7k for repair depending on the stall switch and labor rates much cheaper than a replacement wing. 

[carusoam]

Great details, PMax!

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F-1968]

This is likely flyable, but you may need a ferry permit to be legal.  Skin needs to be changed.  When apart the underlying structure will be assessed.  I would do what you need to do in order to bring it to Beegles Aircraft, Greeley, CO.  They do this type of work regularly and do it as well as anyone, if not better.

John Breda

[Keith20EH]

Now that the dust has settled and a fix is more than likely in place, I respectfully “creep” this thread towards prevention.  No doubt, Mr. Huddleston, you are beating yourself up over this, most pilot are very hard on themselves when this type of incident happens.  Please consider getting the coaching, training, etc. to evaluate the decission making and performance that led to this event.  In hindsight, all accidents are preventable, but it is the ability to “see” into the future the outcome of our present decisions that keeps us safe.  Thankfully this all appears fixable.  Now, get back on that horse, safely.      (from a safety manager, cfi,cfii, mei, atp, 5 type ratings, a&p,ia, and M20E owner)

[Sixstring2k]

I second this,  very well said.  Glad you can walk away from this not only  better pilot than before but safer as well. best of luck.