Any LOP/ROP Masters in the MD/DE/PA Area??

[mschmuff]

Looking for someone who is a pro at ROP/LOP operations who wants to go flying.  I have a '67 F, IO-360A1A and a JPI730.  Want to make sure I'm doing it right!

I am pretty sure my fuel flow needs an overhaul or new transducer.  Maybe it needs cleaned.....

I can't get below 12gph.  I am also burning 22GPH on climb out (used to be about 18 from what I remember)  When I mark the tank and refill,  It's tough to say what my cruise burn is because my everyday flight is 40min.  6 or 7 min climb out, 25-30min cruise and then descent......

Let me know who is game! I'm off all week!!

[Shadrach]

I'm at KHGR. I have a 67F that I have been operating LOP for more than a decade.  My mom says that I am likable person.  I'd be happy to fly with you!

PS: I'm about 45 mins from you by F model.  Plane is currently down for annual so you will need to come to me. I'm happy to bore you to tears with combustion theory and application.

 

Also, you should see variations in take off fuel flow with variations in DA.  The yearly DA at my 701msl airport varies as much as 6000ft throughout the year. full throttle fuel and full throttle MP will vary right along with it.  22GPH is high, but does not seem outlandish on a cold, high pressure day.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Shadrach

[asaxet]

I am flying a 66e in to KDAL almost daily.....   same -A1A and max fuel fuel burn for me is 18....    I’m guessing you need to sort out  that sensor...       

was running a JPI 450...   recent tally replaced with a cgr-30p...   and sorting it out...  about 4 days flying after install.   

50 miles...    running 25/25 @4000 ft   I can lean to 9.5gph most days...    maybe do the Gami gig next...     

 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by asaxet

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, asaxet said:

I am flying a 66e in to KDAL almost daily.....   same -A1A and max fuel fuel burn for me is 18....    I’m guessing you need to sort out  that sensor...       

was running a JPI 450...   recent tally replaced with a cgr-30p...   and sorting it out...  about 4 days flying after install.   

 

He may indeed have an issue with his transducer.  But I've lived in both TX and MD.  It's a little different up and over here.  There will be mornings this winter at my 701ft field when the ASOS will be giving a DA of -2700ft and there will be afternoons next summer when the ASOS will be giving DA  of more than 3000ft.  18GPH is fine but it's not max. The servo delivers full rich fuel flow based on mass airflow and that differs with DA.   

Edited November 28, 2018 by Shadrach

[JRam]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I'm happy to bore you to tears with combustion theory and application

Wait for me! I'm in Manassas, VA and while I am flying K instead of an F, I would love to be bored to tears with combustion theory and application!

[Shadrach]

46 minutes ago, JRam said:

Wait for me! I'm in Manassas, VA and while I am flying K instead of an F, I would love to be bored to tears with combustion theory and application!

Are you based at KHEF?  Do they still have that mush mouthed tower controller?  

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Shadrach

[carusoam]

@mschmuff,

If Schadrach offers his expertise in engine ops in your local area... Jump on it!

Be ready to discuss details as deeply as able... down to progression of flame fronts in the cylinders while LOP and ignition timing set to 25°BTDC....

We have had a few of those discussions around here... probably before Ross had kids...  

Good topics you want to consider covering related to the JPI...

• Settings and menus...
• Lean find, LOP and ROP...
• Depth of leaning... how low can you go... @5k’ and at 10k’. See how far LOP you can get at different alts...
• Gami test... how evenly is your fuel injectors distributing fuel...
• Got FF to go with that?  Calibrating the K-factor is important...
• Leaning for taxi is a good idea... cover that too.  See what happens if you push the throttle in without adjusting the mixture first...
• Target EGT method for setting mixture for T/O power above SL
• Run-up watch the EGTs rise...
• shut-down watch the rpm rise...
• In flight mag test?
• Savvy flight profiles...
• downloading data...
• uploading flight data to Savvy for presentation on MS...
• FF for each leg of operation... leaned or not.... a second reason to have FF (or collect some data)

 

Put that on the list of a dozen things I would want to cover while flying with Ross, Byron, GSXR or Kortopates...

Notice that there is a lot of flexibility to fly with some really knowledgeable MSers.

Also, collect as many MSer CFIIs as you can in your log book...

It is amazing how much other Mooney details you get while expecting what gets discussed on the surface...

Also fly with as many MSers as you can to a fly-out... you pick up a few details each time... or trade details... or give some details...

Stuff that comes from the top of my head... not trying to over-promise something that can’t be delivered...

let me know if I am more excited about this flight than you are?  

This topic came up recently, where it becomes apparent that some people have the tools in the panel, but aren’t using them fully...yet.

We can do better!  

Best regards,

-a-

[JRam]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Are you based at KHEF?  Do they still have that mush mouthed tower controller?  

 

I am at KHEF. I dont think that controller is here anymore. Usually it's a lady in the tower when I fly out.

[JRam]

Btw, she's my favorite. I keep asking for her number and she always gives me 2 separate numbers. One is 4 digits and one is 5 digits with a period after the first 3 digits. Those numbers work out WAY better for me than any numbers I got from women before I started flying!

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, JRam said:

Btw, she's my favorite. I keep asking for her number and she always gives me 2 separate numbers. One is 4 digits and one is 5 digits with a period after the first 3 digits. Those numbers work out WAY better for me than any numbers I got from women before I started flying!

I find women easier to understand...over the radio.  I think she was in the tower last time I was there.  As I recall, there was a P-51 more than 10 miles out, inbound that was being a bit dramatic about what he could and could not do with his Mustang. Apparently Mustangs are way harder to slow down than Mooneys.

[hypertech]

Also interested in this.  I'm based at KRMN now.

[mschmuff]

Shadrach - I'm in!  Gotta find a time that works....I'll PM you.

Female controllers are the best!  Washington tower has one that is incredible.  Voice inflection is great and you can always hear her laughing with coworkers between radio calls.....all the time saying things like "Southwest1764 you're 2 miles out - cleared to land runway 1, there will be one departure before your arrival"!!!  2 miles out and someone is still on the runway!!  As calm as she's ordering a cup of coffee!!

[Marauder]

15 hours ago, mschmuff said:

Looking for someone who is a pro at ROP/LOP operations who wants to go flying.  I have a '67 F, IO-360A1A and a JPI730.  Want to make sure I'm doing it right!

I am pretty sure my fuel flow needs an overhaul or new transducer.  Maybe it needs cleaned.....

I can't get below 12gph.  I am also burning 22GPH on climb out (used to be about 18 from what I remember)  When I mark the tank and refill,  It's tough to say what my cruise burn is because my everyday flight is 40min.  6 or 7 min climb out, 25-30min cruise and then descent......

Let me know who is game! I'm off all week!!

Good to see you back on the grid. Staying away from deer I hope!

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, mschmuff said:

Shadrach - I'm in!  Gotta find a time that works....I'll PM you.

Female controllers are the best!  Washington tower has one that is incredible.  Voice inflection is great and you can always hear her laughing with coworkers between radio calls.....all the time saying things like "Southwest1764 you're 2 miles out - cleared to land runway 1, there will be one departure before your arrival"!!!  2 miles out and someone is still on the runway!!  As calm as she's ordering a cup of coffee!!

There's a female Washington Center controller that I spoke with the last time I launched out of Tipton.  Not only was she easy to understand but she seemed to be reading my mind. I'd get ready to key the mic and she would ask if I wanted what I was just about to ask her for.   This happened twice in the short time I was in her sector. I remember telling my passenger that few controllers are that pleasant and competent, especially at the same time.

[Shadrach]

On 11/27/2018 at 9:40 PM, carusoam said:

@mschmuff,

If Schadrach offers his expertise in engine ops in your local area... Jump on it!

Be ready to discuss details as deeply as able... down to progression of flame fronts in the cylinders while LOP and ignition timing set to 25°BTDC....

We have had a few of those discussions around here... probably before Ross had kids...  

Good topics you want to consider covering related to the JPI...

• Settings and menus...
• Lean find, LOP and ROP...
• Depth of leaning... how low can you go... @5k’ and at 10k’. See how far LOP you can get at different alts...
• Gami test... how evenly is your fuel injectors distributing fuel...
• Got FF to go with that?  Calibrating the K-factor is important...
• Leaning for taxi is a good idea... cover that too.  See what happens if you push the throttle in without adjusting the mixture first...
• Target EGT method for setting mixture for T/O power above SL
• Run-up watch the EGTs rise...
• shut-down watch the rpm rise...
• In flight mag test?
• Savvy flight profiles...
• downloading data...
• uploading flight data to Savvy for presentation on MS...
• FF for each leg of operation... leaned or not.... a second reason to have FF (or collect some data)

 

Put that on the list of a dozen things I would want to cover while flying with Ross, Byron, GSXR or Kortopates...

Notice that there is a lot of flexibility to fly with some really knowledgeable MSers.

Also, collect as many MSer CFIIs as you can in your log book...

It is amazing how much other Mooney details you get while expecting what gets discussed on the surface...

Also fly with as many MSers as you can to a fly-out... you pick up a few details each time... or trade details... or give some details...

Stuff that comes from the top of my head... not trying to over-promise something that can’t be delivered...

let me know if I am more excited about this flight than you are?  

This topic came up recently, where it becomes apparent that some people have the tools in the panel, but aren’t using them fully...yet.

We can do better!  

Best regards,

-a-

Don't over sell me Anthony!  These guys will likely easily stump this chump... If anything, people who observe me in the cockpit come away with the confidence that an idiot can manage an engine properly... 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Shadrach

[Greg Ellis]

Okay, Shadrach.  The interest seems quite high for you to give a talk about combustion events and engine ops.  How about a webinar?  Maybe Mooneyspace could host it.  Just a thought.  We may have lots of folks on here with knowledge in many different areas of flying that would want to put something together as a webinar.

Live streaming on YouTube may work as well if a webinar is not available.  Just a thought.

 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Greg Ellis said:

Okay, Shadrach.  The interest seems quite high for you to give a talk about combustion events and engine ops.  How about a webinar?  Maybe Mooneyspace could host it.  Just a thought.  We may have lots of folks on here with knowledge in many different areas of flying that would want to put something together as a webinar.

Live streaming on YouTube may work as well if a webinar is not available.  Just a thought.

 

Hi Greg!

I was kidding above, but there is some truth to my "confidence" comment.  Everything I know is freely available on-line.  Read anything by John Deakin or Mike Busch concerning engine management.  Find new and old forum posts (Red Board, POA) by Walter Atkinson and/or George Braly.  It's out there for the taking.  I have been operating the Lycoming IO360 across the mixture spectrum with great success for over a decade. What I can offer is the confidence that comes with familiarity.  I try to answer technical questions on this board when I am sure of my answers but manage to screw that up now and again. I'm happy to help a fellow aviator anyway I can, but my only credentials are my own experience.  I am not worthy of webinar but I'm happy to talk to an of my fellow airman that need to bounce their ideas off me.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Shadrach

[M20F-1968]

Shadrach,

I would be interested in engaging in similar discussions with you as well.  I have tested LOP and the plane flies well with that configuration, but have been running 100 ROP until I am sure I have learned proper procedures to run LOP along with any warnings.

John Breda

[Shadrach]

On 12/1/2018 at 7:57 AM, M20F-1968 said:

Shadrach,

I would be interested in engaging in similar discussions with you as well.  I have tested LOP and the plane flies well with that configuration, but have been running 100 ROP until I am sure I have learned proper procedures to run LOP along with any warnings.

John Breda

John, we spoke on the phone nearly a decade a go. You were still in project mode and I was amazed at the ambition of your build. I am so pleased it came to fruition and would be happy to make time for a talk.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Shadrach

[M20F-1968]

Thanks for your reply.  My persistence is both a virtue and a curse.  In the end, I had to see this one through.

Thanks for your offer and will be in touch.  The next few weeks a pretty busy but I look forward to talking again.

John Breda

[Prior owner]

A video tutorial would be great. I would volunteeer my camera and my time, but I’m on the west coast with a grounded plane right now... I have the equipment installed, but have not yet had the opportunity to fly the plane. I need to learn how to use it to learn to run LOP ROP.

[Shadrach]

On 12/5/2018 at 9:46 AM, PilotCoyote said:

A video tutorial would be great. I would volunteeer my camera and my time, but I’m on the west coast with a grounded plane right now... I have the equipment installed, but have not yet had the opportunity to fly the plane. I need to learn how to use it to learn to run LOP ROP.

Too bad you’re down for MX. I just touched down at SFO. In and around the bay through Saturday. My schedule is tight anyway. I’d be happy to fly with you next time I’m here. I landed my F at Gnoss Field back in 05. I’m totally into flying with anyone, but I’m not a credentialed propulsion engineer. I’ll leave the tutorials to those folks.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Shadrach

[jaylw314]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 2:52 PM, mschmuff said:

Looking for someone who is a pro at ROP/LOP operations who wants to go flying.  I have a '67 F, IO-360A1A and a JPI730.  Want to make sure I'm doing it right!

I am pretty sure my fuel flow needs an overhaul or new transducer.  Maybe it needs cleaned.....

I can't get below 12gph.  I am also burning 22GPH on climb out (used to be about 18 from what I remember)  When I mark the tank and refill,  It's tough to say what my cruise burn is because my everyday flight is 40min.  6 or 7 min climb out, 25-30min cruise and then descent......

Let me know who is game! I'm off all week!!

I'm not even sure an IO-360 could take off running 22 GPH!  That's a good 20% higher than the typical 16-18 GPH most people seem to be getting.  Since there's no adjustment possible on the fuel servo and divider, it's hard to imagine how that could actually be happening for real, so I'd put money on your fuel-flow sensor K-factor being set incorrectly on your 730.  Do you have a primary fuel flow gauge, and how does it compare to your 730?

To measure and cross-check your fuel-flow, you could take off and land on the right tank, and only run on the left tank during cruise.  That way you could compare the actual fuel consumed to the calculated amount without the variables in take-off and descent.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I'm not even sure an IO-360 could take off running 22 GPH!  That's a good 20% higher than the typical 16-18 GPH most people seem to be getting.  Since there's no adjustment possible on the fuel servo and divider, it's hard to imagine how that could actually be happening for real, so I'd put money on your fuel-flow sensor K-factor being set incorrectly on your 730.  Do you have a primary fuel flow gauge, and how does it compare to your 730?

To measure and cross-check your fuel-flow, you could take off and land on the right tank, and only run on the left tank during cruise.  That way you could compare the actual fuel consumed to the calculated amount without the variables in take-off and descent.

I’ve been told that the healthy for an ISA day 0.9 to 1.0gph for every 10hp. That’s 18gph on a standard day at sea level. What do you think the number should be when the DA is -2000’? What should the number be when the DA is 3500’?  There’s a lot of talk about 16 to 18 GPH one take off. That may very well be the typical range but it’s certainly not the limit.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Shadrach

[jaylw314]

38 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I’ve been told that the healthy for an ISA day 0.9 to 1.0gph for every 10hp. That’s 18gph on a standard day at sea level. What do you think the number should be when the DA is -2000’? What should the number be when the DA is 3500’?  There’s a lot of talk about 16 to 18 GPH one take off. That may very well be the typical range but it’s certainly not the limit.

I'm just thinking of the proportional difference in air-fuel mixture.  At takeoff, we already run rich, maybe 13:1.  20% more fuel would mean something close to 10:1, which really shouldn't be able to produce power, right?  I imagine that would be a pretty scary takeoff...