FlyboyKC Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 Assuming no pre-heat is available and a temperature between 30 - 45 degrees, what are people finding to start the 180hp carburated engine? My engine was cold and I did my normal turn the fuel pump on to pressurize and 4 pumps on the throttle fuel pump off. The engine popped but didn't start. I repeated the process, but I couldn't get it to fire. After a while, I pumped the throttle about 7 -10 times and it finally fired up. However, I don't think this would be an effective procedure. Looking for recommendations. Thanks Neal M20G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 This is what I do: Master on Fuel pump on til pressure peaks, then off Pump throttle 4-5 times Set throttle at about 1/2" above Idle/Cutoff Put on headset, clip cord to jacket Wind and set yoke clock Set nonmoving red hands on clock Check passenger (if applicable) Turn key and push; pump throttle if needed (after several revs, or a cough or two that doesn't catch) Preheat helps. An hour in a heated hangar helps. May need to rest and repeat. How well does she crank in Fall temps (50-60°)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 The only thing different I would add to Hank’s excellent presentation... Adding the number of pumps required... As they may increase as the temps go towards 20°F... Below 20°F pre-heat is a requirement to get enough gas to evaporate... you might want to check how well the accelerator pump is working... they can get less useful with time... and can be OHd pretty easily...? At 20°F you will pump so much fuel, it will drain on the front tire setting you up for a major blaze if it happens... The fire rule was to continue to start up and then move away from the flames... then shut down and inspect... ridiculous advice at best... it may not start, wasting time needed to get away from the burning wreckage that wants to occur... have fire extinguisher available... easier to use preheat below 40°F... goofy PP experience...not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyboyKC Posted November 27, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 4 minutes ago, carusoam said: The only thing different I would add to Hank’s excellent presentation... Adding the number of pumps required... As they may increase as the temps go towards 20°F... Below 20°F pre-heat is a requirement to get enough gas to evaporate... you might want to check how well the accelerator pump is working... they can get less useful with time... and can be OHd pretty easily...? At 20°F you will pump so much fuel, it will drain on the front tire setting you up for a major blaze if it happens... The fire rule was to continue to start up and then move away from the flames... then shut down and inspect... ridiculous advice at best... it may not start, wasting time needed to get away from the burning wreckage that wants to occur... have fire extinguisher available... easier to use preheat below 40°F... goofy PP experience...not a CFI... Best regards, -a- I try to preheat as much as possible and it DOES make a big difference in the ease of starting. I had the plane pulled into a hanger for a couple of hours (no preheat) one cold day, and while it helped, the CHTs and the oil temp was only up to 40 degrees. It started a little harder than what I would have liked. I have a Concord battery which kept the blades turning enough to start. I really think highly of the Concord batteries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 The real problem is the lack of a real engine primer like most other manufacturers installed. I don’t know if anyone has ever installed one with a field approval? Priming with the accelerator pump in cold weather risks a carb fire. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 2 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Priming with the accelerator pump in cold weather risks a carb fire. Strange how everyone except Mooney says that . . . Seven years on the OH / WV line, many winter flights with only oil pan heat when at home in an unheated hangar, nary a problem . . . . Don't know of any C owners who have had this problem . . . . Not saying it applies to all O-360-equipped aircraft, but it doesn't appear to cause problems for the carbed Mooney fleet. It's specifically what our Owners Manuals instruct us to do (all but the "wait a minute for cold fuel to slowly vaporize" part). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 pumping the throttle on an updraft carburetor on a stationary engine results in fuel pouring out the throat of the carb and into the airbox. Ask yourself would you try to start an engine with fuel dripping out of the airbox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 1 minute ago, jetdriven said: pumping the throttle on an updraft carburetor on a stationary engine results in fuel pouring out the throat of the carb and into the airbox. Ask yourself would you try to start an engine with fuel dripping out of the airbox? Ask yourself why would Mooney put a dangerous procedure into their Owners Manuals for twenty years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 Get some preheat. There are ways. Trying to start a cold engine can't be good for the airplane, you'll wear down your battery eventually. Don't ask me how I know. Moreover, if it gets too cold you can damage your engine by trying to start it. The whole differential cold effect on aluminum and steel thingie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Hank said: Ask yourself why would Mooney put a dangerous procedure into their Owners Manuals for twenty years. there are a lot of things we used to do in the 1960s that we don't anymore, mostly because we know better. We didnt use to wear seatbelts or shoulder harnesses, either. Here's Lycoming's take on it. https://www.lycoming.com/content/tips-start-your-engine and AOPA https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/students/presolo/skills/starting-a-hot-engine and the wise old John Schwaner. https://books.google.com/books?id=JEXnFqVTqJQC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=lycoming+fire+pump+throttle&source=bl&ots=dSBaK0e91I&sig=OBX2Be6lbL-4gTgsd6IS7Fk60qI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3_d33xfXeAhVBtVMKHdFLCTM4ChDoATAGegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=lycoming fire pump throttle&f=false Edited November 27, 2018 by jetdriven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 27, 2018 Report Share Posted November 27, 2018 Living in the Atlanta area, I have very little insight into cold weather starting, but in my limited experience, pumping the throttle while cranking seems to work better than pumping the throttle prior to cranking. Anything below 60F is "cold weather ops", right? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 3 hours ago, Mooneymite said: in my limited experience, pumping the throttle while cranking seems to work better than pumping the throttle prior to cranking. +1. And it keeps raw fuel from running out of the carburetor air box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 In cold northern winters, cranking in teens and twenties with a warm oil pan and frigid fuel, I always pumped the throttle 4-6 times, then dawdled as long as I could to let it begin evaporating. Starting up was longer than in summer, and additional throttle pumping began at about 15 seconds or the second cough. Anyone know of a carbureted Mooney fire due to pumping the throttle before cold starts? None here. Cranking up after fueling was simply advance throttle and start; after lunch, 1-2 pumps, advance throttle and start. The longer it sat, the colder it was, the more times I'd pump the throttle. Because a warm engine will make cold fuel vaporize, but a cold engine won't . . . . and we all know that gas vapors are what ignite, not the liquid. Cold fuel vaporizes slowly, so use more of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 28, 2018 Report Share Posted November 28, 2018 At 21°F... I was known to pump 10 times and wait for a glimmer of evaporation... then... Engage the starter... Then slowly pump some more... with the starter engaged... Yes, that throws in the variable of closed and open throttle... Sure would have been nice to plumb a primer in there... I looked into it, but without MS couldn’t realistically find an answer... i didn’t get very far... I did notice that the cylinders have a standard location to add one... These memories are so old... I remember starting the plane with a wet tire, nobody in the plane but me... taxi forward enough to leave the fuel puddle behind in the event of a flame up... that would mean, run the engine to get warm enough to start again, once the family was loaded... It would have been nice to have OHd Magnetos too... and maybe some fine wire plugs... and an OHd shower of sparks system or other... and... a zeftronics would have been good too... Flying on a budget takes some extra effort... and a lot of planning... and some extra get ready... for the next opportunity... At and below 20°F... I threw in the towel and rented some heat for the start... You probably get two or three chances to get this started... the Gill will be dead quickly... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 After reading through the 1,069 threads this summer on hot starting my Io-360 and all the O-360 guys professing the superiority of starting a carb engine vs injected, I admit, I love this thread! I’m just sipping a beer, and enjoying discussions about all the techniques for starting (or burning up) an O-360, the battery, the starter, the whole airplane, etc instead of the same thing about the IO-360! I flew today in Northern Washington and it started right up! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: After reading through the 1,069 threads this summer on hot starting my Io-360 and all the O-360 guys professing the superiority of starting a carb engine vs injected, I admit, I love this thread! 1,069 to 1. Really? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 10 hours ago, Ragsf15e said: After reading through the 1,069 threads this summer on hot starting my Io-360 and all the O-360 guys professing the superiority of starting a carb engine vs injected, I admit, I love this thread! I’m just sipping a beer, and enjoying discussions about all the techniques for starting (or burning up) an O-360, the battery, the starter, the whole airplane, etc instead of the same thing about the IO-360! I flew today in Northern Washington and it started right up! You can keep loving the thread until you have to replace a cylinder. Then you'll enjoy the piquant taste of crow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanM20C Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 (edited) Based on what I have seen with small continentals(C-85's, o-200's, etc), I think Induction fires are fairly common. I also believe they usually are not a big deal as the engine takes care of them while cranking/starting. With my C I would use 0 to 2 pumps in the summer and crank within 10 secs. When it was winter and cold I would pump 4 times and wait a bit like @Hank and give it a pump or two while cranking. When you pump the throttle the accelerator gives a squirt of fuel directly up out of the carb into the intake, not unlike a squirt gun. The intake spider is just an inch or two above the carb, the fuel being squirted up immediately hits the top of the spider and then gravity takes over and in runs back through the carb. If you are pumping and waiting for the fuel to vaporize it is vaporizing from the fuel that has pooled in the air/cab heat box ahead of the carb. This is why I limited to just 4 pumps, in my mind I figured the less fuel sitting down there the better. But I have no idea if that is true. You can avoid the risk of an intake fire by only pumping while cranking. When it's cold this will undoubtedly put some fuel into the exhaust system. That could possibly cause a backfire and damage the muffler. This might be unlikely, I'm just sensitive to these things now. Best bet is to move south, or preheat the engine the best you can. Keep in mind that warming the carb and intake tubes is key to easy starting. Forced air preheat does this well, if you are using a tanis or Reiff system it is best to add a cowl blanket and cowl plugs to help warm up everything under the cowl. Cheers, Dan Edited November 30, 2018 by DanM20C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 3 hours ago, DanM20C said: ....Best bet is to move south, Cheers, Dan Atlanta is definitely full. Atlanta traffic among worst in the world. Try Cuba.... no cold starting issues there. Other issues, for sure, but no cold starting issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Winter starting? What the hell is that? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Whether you fly a C, or an R... Live in the cold, or Atlanta... I think Stephen Stills has the appropriate financial advice... Best regards, -a- From old fuzzy memories... Well, there's a rose in a fisted gloveAnd the eagle flies with the doveAnd if you can't be with the one you love, honeyLove the one you're withLove the one you're withLove the one you're withLove the one you're with 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted December 1, 2018 Report Share Posted December 1, 2018 10 hours ago, steingar said: You can keep loving the thread until you have to replace a cylinder. Then you'll enjoy the piquant taste of crow. Yeah, I did 2 last year, it hurt. Crow is apparently an expensive, acquired taste. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragsf15e Posted December 1, 2018 Report Share Posted December 1, 2018 12 hours ago, Mooneymite said: 1,069 to 1. Really? Yeah, but let me enjoy! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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