Opinions on this M20F

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, sdflysurf said:

I have heard that.  Is it because of familiarity or issues with the electric?  I have an emergency crank on my left that I can use if the gear doesn't come down.  It's already a tight cabin so I can't imagine moving a J-bar - I'd spill my drink or bag of chips

Simplicity, reliability, ease of maintenance.  It may feel awkward to some the first few time they use it (though that was not my experience). There is quite simply less to malfunction. No couplers, gears, motors, cranks, squat switches etc. Just this and you right arm.

 

 There are many on this board who’ve flown both. It’d be interesting to do a poll (likely been done) on preferences of those that have significant time in each.  

Edited November 25, 2018 by Shadrach

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Same here. Such is the beauty of being a VFR pilot who flies for fun.  With it comes an immunity from the oh-so-expensive  panel obsessions of our instrument rated brethren.

Jim

As one of those IFR bothers... I like the way you put it. 

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Shadrach said:

There are many on this board who’ve flown both. It’d be interesting to do a poll (likely been done) on preferences of those that have significant time in each.  

I have just about 500 hours in each... which I know isn't much 

But I'd take the Johnson bar all day long. 

[Bob_Belville]

I have just about 500 hours in each... which I know isn't much 
But I'd take the Johnson bar all day long. 

I have almost 3000 hrs. in JBar Mooneys. I never have to wonder whether the gear was down and locked.

Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Simplicity, reliability, ease of maintenance.  It may feel awkward to some the first few time they use it (though that was not my experience). There is quite simply less to malfunction. No couplers, gears, motors, cranks, squat switches etc. Just this and you right arm.

My right arm is fine, but my right shoulder really appreciates the electric gear! The coupler only comes into play if you don't stow the emergency crank properly. So far (11 years into ownership), no gear issues.

For J bars, there are worn up blocks that let them collapse; "sticky" grips that don't slide well; bent bars that are difficult to lock into one position or the other; worn boots that prevent locking into the panel to land; carpet that scrunches up and prevents locking into the panel to land; unbuckled seatbelts in the pattern from swinging the gear; bloody knuckles from whacking seatbelt buckles while swinging the gear; the "Mooney dip" on departure, trying to get the gear up; and whatever was wrong with steingar's gear that took several visits to the A&P to fix. 

In the end, there is no "best" gear retraction method, only personal preference. I've never even sat in a manual gear Mooney, the faults above have all been experienced vicariously here. Along with mbdiag's injury and shoulder surgery forcing the sale of hus J-bar C and purchase of an electric F. My shoulder understands and sympathisizes, but fortunately my own troubles predate pilothood.

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have almost 3000 hrs. in JBar Mooneys. I never have to wonder whether the gear was down and locked.

I've never doubted it in my electric gear C either. Just in case I can't see the green light on the panel, as during my total electrical failure, there's that nifty mechanical indicator in the floor.

Also, I keep drinks, lunch, sectionals, plates, etc., between the seats and on the floor below the throttle quadrant.  

[KLRDMD]

44 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I have just about 500 hours in each... which I know isn't much  But I'd take the Johnson bar all day long. 

I probably have 500 hours in manual gear and 600-700 in electric gear Mooneys. I would take manual gear every time.

[dmc]

44 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Of course you are correct and I won't disagree with you at all.

But we also know that the trend is for buyers to be getting younger with more and more pilots learning to fly with the added convenience of GPS and autopilots. Additionally Mooneys are particularly well suited for IFR and long cross country flying. The reason I bought a Mooney was for the efficiency for cross country flying. Mooneys will go A to B cheaper than probably any other certificated airplane. A GPS and autopilot can make it even more fuel efficient. Finally, while an airplane fully equipped as such will command a higher price, it won't be but about 25% of the cost of doing the upgrades after purchase. Therefore, finding one is likely worth the time and effort.  Even if you don't use it yourself, the next owner will likely pay a premium for it.

 

I have not been in the market, but when I was I didn’t see many for sale only 25% higher than The upgrades.  I agree that if you can buy a plane that someone has installed say an aspen, stec, and 650 or 750, and only expects .25cents on the dollar it would be foolish not to buy.

My problem I guess is I’m to impatient,  I decided what I wanted and had a budget.  Then I looked for a few weeks and bought the one my wife liked the looks of the best.

[FloridaMan]

I've been alternating lately and I much prefer the J-bar. The only advantage of the electric is the higher extension speed, though I feel that being able to fly faster with your gear out and then use the speed brakes to slow down requires even more discipline to ensure you have your gear down. With the J-bar, my right hand goes in a little circle when I'm on approach and one stop on that circle is my fingernail between the J-bar and the latch. My hand one time alerted me to my gear not being down when an approach sequence was interrupted and I went from #3 to number one with a "fly directly to the numbers" and a tight 180. 

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

My right arm is fine, but my right shoulder really appreciates the electric gear! The coupler only comes into play if you don't stow the emergency crank properly. So far (11 years into ownership), no gear issues.

For J bars, there are worn up blocks that let them collapse; "sticky" grips that don't slide well; bent bars that are difficult to lock into one position or the other; worn boots that prevent locking into the panel to land; carpet that scrunches up and prevents locking into the panel to land; unbuckled seatbelts in the pattern from swinging the gear; bloody knuckles from whacking seatbelt buckles while swinging the gear; the "Mooney dip" on departure, trying to get the gear up; and whatever was wrong with steingar's gear that took several visits to the A&P to fix. 

In the end, there is no "best" gear retraction method, only personal preference. I've never even sat in a manual gear Mooney, the faults above have all been experienced vicariously here. Along with mbdiag's injury and shoulder surgery forcing the sale of hus J-bar C and purchase of an electric F. My shoulder understands and sympathisizes, but fortunately my own troubles predate pilothood.

Hank, I respect your opinion.   I am not denigrating the electric dear. I think it’s one of the more reliable designs.  However, my post was specifically about Manuel gear. Given that you have no time or experience with the system, your post is like critiquing restaurant whose food you’ve never eaten. 

“Listen, I’ve never eaten at the diner on the corner but the coffee shop across the street from my house is as good as any. I’m sure it’s just as good as the diner down the street where I’ve never eaten. Oh, you’ve eaten at both and think the diner on the corner is better and less expensive?  Well, I’ve never eaten there but I can say from my experience eating elsewhere that it’s no better than any place I’ve ever eaten“

Edited November 26, 2018 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

 The question is, is there anyone with significant time and both that prefer his electric? If you’re up there please speak up as I’ve never encountered anyone with experience with the system that does not prefer it. Only first time users that  never get beyond a few retractions  (eg Aviation journalist )

[David_H]

There is something very reassuring when on short final and giving the J-bar a last tug to ensure the gear is down and locked. I’m flying an electric gear F and I now always look down to the floor indicator to visually confirm the gear before calling out “gear down and locked” during my final GUMPS check. The indicator just doesn’t give me the same feeling of “down and locked” as the J-bar seemed to. Maybe it’s a mental thing. 

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, David_H said:

There is something very reassuring when on short final and giving the J-bar a last tug to ensure the gear is down and locked. I’m flying an electric gear F and I now always look down to the floor indicator to visually confirm the gear before calling out “gear down and locked” during my final GUMPS check. The indicator just doesn’t give me the same feeling of “down and locked” as the J-bar seemed to. Maybe it’s a mental thing. 

Yep!

[whiskytango]

I have about 500 hours J-bar time between my C and E models, and 1000 hours of electrics in my two K models.  I prefer the J-bar.  Like the other posters above, there is nothing like tugging the J-bar on base and final to make sure you have gear down.  I always felt that it was harder to forget to tug the J-bar than it was to forget to look at a switch and alignment index marks.

[carusoam]

6 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 The question is, is there anyone with significant time and both that prefer his electric?

We have an MSer with a challenged shoulder... swapped out the plane with manual gear to go to a plane with electric gear...

So for the guys aging, with the manual gear, in their forever plane... keep doing those shoulder exercises along with all the other cardio stuff... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

37 minutes ago, carusoam said:

We have an MSer with a challenged shoulder... swapped out the plane with manual gear to go to a plane with electric gear...

So for the guys aging, with the manual gear, in their forever plane... keep doing those shoulder exercises along with all the other cardio stuff... 

Best regards,

-a-

My shoulder didn't make it to age 40 . . . . Very thankful for electric gear; bought the plane six years later.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

We have an MSer with a challenged shoulder... swapped out the plane with manual gear to go to a plane with electric gear...

So for the guys aging, with the manual gear, in their forever plane... keep doing those shoulder exercises along with all the other cardio stuff... 

Best regards,

-a-

Fair enough and a very valid point.  However, I think it’s more of an injury issue than an age. I’ve had some nasty injuries and understand the desire to preserve what’s left of a joint. Age is relative...my Father can swing the gear no problem and he is north of 80yrs, 5’5” and 140 soaking wet. My hangar neighbor Jim can do it as well and he has a few years on my father. I watched Jim hand prop a Twin Comanche a few years ago...at first it was uncomfortable for me to watch but it turned out he knew what he was doing. 

[takair]

From Beachtalk, it appears that the subject airplane in this thread was in a fatal accident.  Sad.  Seems like a lot of accidents of late with newly sold aircraft...or maybe I’m just noticing it more lately.  

Edit: I see there is a thread ref. the accident...

[Runway37]

On 11/25/2018 at 9:10 AM, Shadrach said:

My anecdotal experience is that those who have learned to use the manual gear would not wish to go back to electric. I guess that only makes a selling point for those who know the system. I certainly don’t think manual gear is discounted on the open market.

I wouldn't hesitate buying a j-bar airplane for a second. The only "problem" I ever had was when a box of cookies found it's way between the seats when on the ground. It made for an ungraceful takeoff but that was it. After that, the "C" in CIGAR meant "controls" and "cookies".

[rbridges]

I like my j-bar, but gear system would prob be last concern on my list. As far as avionics, I really have grown accustomed to the AP.  it helps relieve workload, especially when flying IMC. I know I'm not God's gift to the piloting world, so I like anything that makes things easier.