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Opinions on this M20F


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16 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

Unless you're going to be flying 1hr legs I'd pass on anything that didn't have GPS coupled autopilot.

Then he'll pass on most Vintage planes. I rarely use the AccuFlight hooked to my 430W, but love love love the AccuTrak on the heading bug!

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9 minutes ago, Hank said:

Then he'll pass on most Vintage planes. I rarely use the AccuFlight hooked to my 430W, but love love love the AccuTrak on the heading bug!

Correct, but the vintage planes that are out there with proper autopilots and moving map GPS units, are the best value and will be the easiest to resell. You just have to find them.

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Also, as to the metallurgy discussion.  This engine was factory rebuilt in 1992.  It's entirely likely the cam and crank came from much older engines.  File this under crap shoot.  If it's performing well, no reason not to keep running it.  The thing I dislike most about this engine is that it's been flown for 26 years and 1242hrs with a single probe EGT and CHT.  The JPI FF is nice to have but in my opinion far less important than comprehensive EGT/CHT and oil temp data.  
My plane came with a 1991 factory overhaul and I thought I was good...until the cam spalled in 2015. At least I was over 2100 hours so it didn't really owe me much, but I had planned to put hundreds more hours on it.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

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1 minute ago, KSMooniac said:

My plane came with a 1991 factory overhaul and I thought I was good...until the cam spalled in 2015. At least I was over 2100 hours so it didn't really owe me much, but I had planned to put hundreds more hours on it.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

How long do you think you were operating with a spalled cam? Was there any type of external circumstance that precipitated the failure?

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Unknown, unfortunately. I'm sure it was a slow degradation over some period of time since I didn't have any sudden indication of performance loss. Never found anything noticeable in the filter, and I wasn't checking that bitch of a screen (bad idea!). I flew regularly, but had some 3-4 week downtime here and there and perhaps one of those periods started the failure. I now aim to fly every 10 days, use camguard, and am planning for a dehydrator as well. I also added the Centrilube cam mod at overhaul. It's a crap shoot for sure.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

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20 hours ago, Hank said:

Then he'll pass on most Vintage planes. I rarely use the AccuFlight hooked to my 430W, but love love love the AccuTrak on the heading bug!

I didn’t pay much more than the asking price of this M20F for mine. And it came with STEC30, KLN89B, MX20 moving map, speed brakes, and all the 201speed mods.  Easily $50k or more to add these capabilities to a vintage plane, albeit with their modern equivalents.

I looked at quite a few vintage planes and was tempted but ultimately passed as they didn’t meet my mission of an IFR capable plane with autopilot/GPS.  In two years I’ve put 400 XC hours on it. Glad that I was patient. 

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On 11/21/2018 at 2:16 PM, Hank said:

Then he'll pass on most Vintage planes. I rarely use the AccuFlight hooked to my 430W, but love love love the AccuTrak on the heading bug!

It amazes me what is now considered “necessary” to fly cross country and I’ve only been flying for 20 years. Our F model has landed in almost every state in the lower 48 as well various parts of Canada and Mexico without a GPS coupled AP. My Dad’s first C model had no wing leveler or auto pilot and he flew it all over the country.

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2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

It amazes me what is now considered “necessary” to fly cross country and I’ve only been flying for 20 years. Our F model has landed in almost every state in the lower 48 as well various parts of Canada and Mexico without a GPS coupled AP. My Dad’s first C model had no wing leveler or auto pilot and he flew it all over the country.

Uh, I guess I’ll be sure to stay off your lawn?

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Yeah folks used to cross Texas on horse back as well. No one has to have an autopilot. But there's no question it makes long cross country flying easier, and for most people, more enjoyable as well. It also most certainly makes a difference when it's time to sell. And since the price premium on an autopilot equipped vintage Mooney is about 1/4 or less of the cost of installing a new autopilot, it makes sense to buy one if one can be found.

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My 67F is 21 numbers before yours same paint color and condition,  not much better on the radios when I bought it but had lots of so called speed mods, 201 windscreen, flap seals, hinge covers an so on, 3 bladed Prop, 400 hour SMOH , and in my opinion, was maintained  well over its lifetime I am the 3rd owner, paid less than 48K 2 years ago. 

 I would think that one is overpriced with engine times and as stated should be considered run out . Your gonna want a GPS to get places directly Probably a 430 at minimum if your IR,  you will want a 4cyl EGT/CHT. These 2 alone will cost you well over 10K installed, now include an engine overhaul you might be in J price range

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You don't need an autopilot in an M20F; I hand flew mine for 1100+ hours all over the country in all approved weather conditions. I use the KFC200 in the Rocket frequently except I still hand fly my approaches as the pitch control hunts more than I like. 

The M20F is a sweet flying airplane with very different flight characteristics from the Rocket and long body Mooneys I've flown. Wing loading and controls are much lighter and it is a more enjoyable airplane to tool around and go sightseeing in than the Rocket -- one reason I'm holding on to both planes for the time being. Even with the autopilot, the Rocket still requires some footwork for coordination in the climb, et cetera. In the F, I use my feet for small course adjustments and touch the trim wheel every now and then; it really isn't bad as you're supposed to maintain your scan and situational awareness anyways while flying. 

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23 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah folks used to cross Texas on horse back as well. No one has to have an autopilot. But there's no question it makes long cross country flying easier, and for most people, more enjoyable as well. It also most certainly makes a difference when it's time to sell. And since the price premium on an autopilot equipped vintage Mooney is about 1/4 or less of the cost of installing a new autopilot, it makes sense to buy one if one can be found.

I like autopilots, but they’ve not been a regular part of my flying experience so I guess they don’t register as high on my hierarchy of needs/wants. I’m very comfortable doing 500nm XCs with a wing leveler. I’d like more, but I’m comfortable hand flying. Only a true Diva would compare hand flying a Mooney to traveling by horseback...:P

One of the reasons these machines don’t get new autopilots is due to the poor return on investment.

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3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Only a true Diva would compare hand flying a Mooney to traveling by horseback...:P

One of the reasons these machines don’t get new autopilots is due to the poor return on investment.

I suppose I walked right into that one :blink:

And while the return on investment might be poor, those that have it sell quick and don't sit. I know of four specific Mooneys for sale right now that have been passed over by several buyer just because of the lack of autopilot. Hopefully more the vintage fleet will get outfitted when the TrueTrak, Trio, Dynon, etc actually have Mooneys on the STC.

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As a buyer currently searching for the right plane, I can testify that the autopilot is high on the priority list. I have resisted the temptation to settle for something below my requirements thinking I can just upgrade what doesn't meet my needs/wants.

My idea for what I want to buy has evolved since first beginning my search and I suppose it may change again. However, it seems to become more sharply focused with each iteration.

I notice some planes that have relatively new paint jobs. I'm not certain what a paint job costs on a Mooney but it's maybe $15K or more? Anyway, I'm disappointed when I see a Mooney E, F or J with a new paint job but no WAAS GPS and no ADS-B. The panel is where I put most of my focus and the autopilot is really right up there. It's way more important than the paint and interior.

That said, it is really easy to find a Mooney with a great panel, autopilot, engine, paint and interior. Getting the whole package is outside of my budget though. Therefore, I am really focused on those first three, panel, autopilot and engine time.

I sometimes see planes that have nice engines, paint and interior but their panel and autopilot are lacking. When I put the numbers to it and estimate the cost of upgrading the panel, it generally blows my budget.

Also, really, I just want to fly. Spending a lot of time planning upgrades is not how I want to spend my first year. I suspect that a panel upgrade is the most thought requiring activity. Engine, paint and interior all seem pretty mundane. I'd rather focus on them as required or time and money allows.

MooneySpace is a really great resource and I'm trying to make the most out of it. I appreciate any pointers as I continue my search. 

It's all about the panel for me at the moment... :ph34r:

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I own an M20F 1968 that I bought for a low price and fixed up...However while doing my research I became very familiar with pricing and features.

I would price this one at 35-40K based on my shopping experience and what I know of all of the upgrades.

-engine time is over 50% but technicially past TBO because TBO is not only hours but also years (usually 12 years)....this was done in 1992.

-interior is "ok"

-no 201 mods?  Definitely I would want the 201 windshield.

-no electric gear.

-no adsb or garmin 430/530 so you'll be doing an avionics panel upgrade.

 

Watch trade a plane for a while and you'll find a decent one come along for 50K that will look like this one but have a lower hour engine with 201 mods and electric gear and maybe a better interior.

If you want modern avionics in a vintage mooney you either have to put them in yourself or price your plane 10-15K higher.

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2 minutes ago, sdflysurf said:

-no electric gear.

My anecdotal experience is that those who have learned to use the manual gear would not wish to go back to electric. I guess that only makes a selling point for those who know the system. I certainly don’t think manual gear is discounted on the open market.

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Just now, Shadrach said:

My anecdotal experience is that those who have learned to use the manual gear would not wish to go back to electric. I guess that only makes a selling point for those who know the system. I certainly don’t think manual gear is discounted on the open market.

I have heard that.  Is it because of familiarity or issues with the electric?  I have an emergency crank on my left that I can use if the gear doesn't come down.  It's already a tight cabin so I can't imagine moving a J-bar - I'd spill my drink or bag of chips :)

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Manual gear works.

Electric gear has been known to mess up.

Neither system is perfect.

Wear in the down lock block can cause important issues... know the thumbnail trick, swap out the block...

The pilot has been known to goof things up more than the mechanical systems.

 

The challenge with the manual system is knowing the air speeds that allow it to work best.  This is hard to learn by yourself if you are not super mechanically inclined...

knowing the manual system allows you to be somewhat more careful when operating the electric version.

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

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38 minutes ago, sdflysurf said:

I have heard that.  Is it because of familiarity or issues with the electric?  I have an emergency crank on my left that I can use if the gear doesn't come down.  It's already a tight cabin so I can't imagine moving a J-bar - I'd spill my drink or bag of chips :)

After a few years in an M20C, I often wish I had the J-bar in my 252.

Swinging the bar takes all of 3 seconds. I would often advise my right seater to give me some room. I'm charitably oversized, and never had any problem with the room. 

In the 252, every time I reach for the little white disk to actuate the gear, I'm hoping I see the lights and hoping everything works. With the J-bar, it just works and works every time.

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On 11/21/2018 at 2:26 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Correct, but the vintage planes that are out there with proper autopilots and moving map GPS units, are the best value and will be the easiest to resell. You just have to find them.

It still depends on cost and mission.  It’s great if you can find a plane with all those, but they will cost more.  I’ve owned my plane for 6 years with no panel mount gps, and I added a brittain wing leveler and acutrak later for not much money.  I was more interested in engine times and cosmetics.  Everything cost and you just need to decide what is important to you.  And most important is your budget.

i have about 60k in my plane.  I paid 50k and added shoulder harness, engine monitor, and the brittain.  It will probably also be my last plane, I’m 61 now, so I have no plans on selling.  Sure I could spend 30k or so on the panel and probably have a $65-75k plane.  Or I can just fly it the way it is and keep the 30k invested.  10 years from now I can give the plane away and probably be ahead.

But I’m a VFR pilot and unless it makes the plane faster or safer, I’m not interested.

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8 minutes ago, dmc said:

It still depends on cost and mission.  It’s great if you can find a plane with all those, but they will cost more.  I’ve owned my plane for 6 years with no panel mount gps, and I added a brittain wing leveler and acutrak later for not much money.  I was more interested in engine times and cosmetics.  Everything cost and you just need to decide what is important to you.  And most important is your budget.

i have about 60k in my plane.  I paid 50k and added shoulder harness, engine monitor, and the brittain.  It will probably also be my last plane, I’m 61 now, so I have no plans on selling.  Sure I could spend 30k or so on the panel and probably have a $65-75k plane.  Or I can just fly it the way it is and keep the 30k invested.  10 years from now I can give the plane away and probably be ahead.

But I’m a VFR pilot and unless it makes the plane faster or safer, I’m not interested.

Of course you are correct and I won't disagree with you at all.

But we also know that the trend is for buyers to be getting younger with more and more pilots learning to fly with the added convenience of GPS and autopilots. Additionally Mooneys are particularly well suited for IFR and long cross country flying. The reason I bought a Mooney was for the efficiency for cross country flying. Mooneys will go A to B cheaper than probably any other certificated airplane. A GPS and autopilot can make it even more fuel efficient. Finally, while an airplane fully equipped as such will command a higher price, it won't be but about 25% of the cost of doing the upgrades after purchase. Therefore, finding one is likely worth the time and effort.  Even if you don't use it yourself, the next owner will likely pay a premium for it.

 

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