Mooney buying advice

[Yetti]

Stolen from GSXer -

Airplane ownership, not for the faint of heart or light of wallet.

• 1 AMU - waking around money (hip pocket)
• 10% of purchase price for first annual (checking)
• 10 AMU - emergency maintenance fund (savings)
• Be able to access the cost of an engine anytime from day 1 forward. (Credit card, home equity, Uncle Vinny, etc)
• And in the worst case, walk away from the entire thing without suffering financial ruin. (discovery of a corroded spar, as an example)

[skydvrboy]

I think this is a very good rule of thumb for most Mooney purchases or similar type aircraft, but certainly doesn't apply to all aircraft.  Also, there can be a HUGE trade-off between purchase price and maintenance.

For example, your first annual will probably be more than 10% of the purchase price on a $4,000 used ultralight, but you won't need a $10k emergency maintenance reserve.  Similarly, you better have a lot more than $1AMU walking around money for a Pilatus PC-12, as you'll need that just to fuel up.

Further, if you skimp on purchase price, you may find that your first annual to be closer to 30% - 50% of the purchase price (my first annual was 30% and my AI let some things go that were "marginal").  But for most of what we are all flying, this is a pretty good ballpark.

 

[Yetti]

I pulled this out of another thread so when we get the next "hey looking for a Mooney"  person we can just send them to this thread.   Here was my modification to GSXer's

I think we have finally arrived at the same spot.   I would probably include bullet 2 with bullet 3 if it were a vintage Mooney.   For a newer plane you are probably spot on.  

Might want to include the

• Prebuy /flying around the country looking at planes 3 AMU
• Getting her home $2 AMU

[StevenL757]

12 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

I think this is a very good rule of thumb for most Mooney purchases or similar type aircraft, but certainly doesn't apply to all aircraft.  Also, there can be a HUGE trade-off between purchase price and maintenance.

For example, your first annual will probably be more than 10% of the purchase price on a $4,000 used ultralight, but you won't need a $10k emergency maintenance reserve.  Similarly, you better have a lot more than $1AMU walking around money for a Pilatus PC-12, as you'll need that just to fuel up.

Further, if you skimp on purchase price, you may find that your first annual to be closer to 30% - 50% of the purchase price (my first annual was 30% and my AI let some things go that were "marginal").  But for most of what we are all flying, this is a pretty good ballpark.

I think Paul was trying to convey his experiences commensurate with his - and others' - similar aircraft values and related maintenance/long-term ownership costs.  Not sure if there was a question in the original post, but I think you'll find the numbers generally scale well across all aircraft models - including Mooneys.

Steve

[DVA]

Stolen from GSXer -
Airplane ownership, not for the faint of heart or light of wallet.

• 1 AMU - waking around money (hip pocket)
• 10% of purchase price for first annual (checking)
• 10 AMU - emergency maintenance fund (savings)
• Be able to access the cost of an engine anytime from day 1 forward. (Credit card, home equity, Uncle Vinny, etc)
• And in the worst case, walk away from the entire thing without suffering financial ruin. (discovery of a corroded spar, as an example)

I’m not in total agreement with all the details here, although I’ll say it’s true that’s it not for the faint of heart.

Yes, have all the AMU and cash reserves available for the unexpected.

But...

I’ve owned a few in various deals from outright ownership (my current Bravo) to partnering in a J, a 340, T303 and 172 over the last 35 years or so. And owning a maintenance shop where we specialize in Mooney’s I can offer this guidance on inspections of any aircraft.

Your first annual should be relatively smooth (unless something breaks) because during the purchase you insisted on getting the best “annual” possible before you buy.

There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection, that’s just a made up thing to avoid the cost and the truth you really need to hear.

I know many shops that will not do any inspection that asks them for their opinion about general airworthiness unless they perform and sign off on an actual FAA annual. And these shops are smart to do so as the liability is extremely high otherwise.

If you’re asking “should I buy this airplane based on its airworthiness?” The only way for you get a legal opinion on “airworthiness” from a third party is to do the equivalent of a part 43 annual inspection where an AP with IA opines that the aircraft is airworthy. My experience suggests that you do this completely and more thoroughly than ever before you buy. Even it means more cost. There’s no reason to be surprised by a corroded spar next year.

The only difference between a purchase based annual and the yearly one is when you stop the process. Usually you start an FAA annual to finish it if you want to fly the airplane. But a purchase annual can be done differently.

1. Find the airplane of your dreams.
2. Fall in love with it.
3. Negotiate the terms contingent on passing a full annual (use that term, not pre-buy) expect to pay for the inspection pass or fail. (You should’ve negotiated a lower price to cover much of this)
4. Fly it for hour or two. (Expect to pay the costs to do this)
4a, 4b and 4c. BE SURE YOU WANT THIS AIRCRAFT - because your investment starts at the next step.
5. Perform the inspection, (watch if you can, we encourage it at our shop) starting with the biggest and most expensive items and areas first - inspection stops (and so do costs) if issues are found that queer the deal - you walk away a lucky duck.
6. If everything goes well - buy the plane with a fresh best-ever annual and with a feeling of safety and pride.

Yes, I am suggesting that you take responsibility and cover the cost to ensure that your getting a safe aircraft. If the previous owner did a good job of keeping the plane airworthy, you’ll both be happy in the end, and if not - you dodged a bullet at exactly the right time.

Flame on kids - I feel it coming.

:-)
DVA



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[gsxrpilot]

12 minutes ago, DVA said:

There is no such thing as a pre-buy inspection, that’s just a made up thing to avoid the cost and the truth you really need to hear.

I know many shops that will not do any inspection that asks them for their opinion about general airworthiness unless they perform and sign off on an actual FAA annual. And these shops are smart to do so as the liability is extremely high otherwise.

 

Just because an annual is a legally required inspection, it says nothing about the continued airworthiness of the airplane. Exhibit A would be all the airplanes that have years of pencil whipped annuals in their log books. I see them all the time come through SWTA. The point being, it doesn't matter whether you get a pre-buy done or a full signed-off annual done on the plane you want to purchase. What matters is the expertise and honesty of the A&P doing the inspection.

There's nothing magical about getting an annual done instead of a pre-buy. In fact from my experience, the pre-buy's I've had done at Don Maxwell's shop and at SWTA, are more thorough than any annual.

[DVA]

Just because an annual is a legally required inspection, it says nothing about the continued airworthiness of the airplane.

...The point being, it doesn't matter whether you get a pre-buy done or a full signed-off annual done on the plane you want to purchase. What matters is the expertise and honesty of the A&P doing the inspection.

There's nothing magical about getting an annual done instead of a pre-buy.

In fact from my experience, the pre-buy's I've had done at Don Maxwell's shop and at SWTA, are more thorough than any annual.

I agree, an annual simply states that the aircraft is considered airworthy at that moment. Including all the “pencil whipped” entries of the past as they don’t count anymore.

I agree that the quality of the inspection is mutually exclusive of the actual process of the annual. We’ve all seen good ones and bad ones. (I totally agree about Don’s diligence).

I disagree about the magical qualities of a pre-buy vs an annual. Only an annual can confirm FAA worthiness by a third party if that annual is fully completed per part 43 and or manufactures inspections criteria. So if the buyer is looking for a legal representation of airworthiness, they must get that via an proper inspection that follows the guidance of the annual. By virtue of a an IA sign off under such conditions, you have done an annual inspection.

And why not? I don’t think anyone is suggesting to stop short of making sure the aircraft is inspected properly, right?



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[Yetti]

I think at issue is airworthy.    My shadetree airworthy standard was higher than the prior owner's certified mechanic who signed off the plane.    There is also the understanding I have with the grumpy IA is that it was airworthy until it crossed out of his hangar.   He can't control anything past that.

Edited November 19, 2018 by Yetti

[gsxrpilot]

28 minutes ago, DVA said:

I agree, an annual simply states that the aircraft is considered airworthy at that moment. Including all the “pencil whipped” entries of the past as they don’t count anymore.

I agree that the quality of the inspection is mutually exclusive of the actual process of the annual. We’ve all seen good ones and bad ones. (I totally agree about Don’s diligence).

I disagree about the magical qualities of a pre-buy vs an annual. Only an annual can confirm FAA worthiness by a third party if that annual is fully completed per part 43 and or manufactures inspections criteria. So if the buyer is looking for a legal representation of airworthiness, they must get that via an proper inspection that follows the guidance of the annual. By virtue of a an IA sign off under such conditions, you have done an annual inspection.

And why not? I don’t think anyone is suggesting to stop short of making sure the aircraft is inspected properly, right?

 

Ah, got it. Yep and I'll agree. But I don't think I care about a legal representation of airworthiness (one can always find a guy who will sign it off... just find the pencil whipper) but I do care about protecting my investment.

I guess I'm saying I less about the fact the airplane is "legally" airworthy as much as I care that it's in properly airworthy condition to the standards of a well respected and Mooney knowledgeable AI. If Don Maxwell tells me over the phone, that he's looked at the plane and it's a good one, that says more about the investment I'm about to make, then any signature in the logbook attached to an annual.

But this makes me think... I get a pre-buy done all the way through to a full annual and signed off by the AI who's local to the seller. Then I fly the plane home and my mechanic, lets say Don Maxwell just for argument, shows me several airworthy issues with the plane that the previous AI overlooked/missed/ignored, but signed off. Do I have any legal recourse against the AI who signed off the annual a few days prior?  If I do, then it seems the annual inspection is worth something. If not, then why have it done at all?

[carusoam]

More details on the purchasing steps people take, then into early ownership...

 

There are three levels of airplanes people tend to purchase at MS... the buying process is more complex depending on what magnitude the purchase is...

• Expensive as another car...
• Expensive as their house...
• A Forever-Plane...

Also consider the values of... (for consideration, of course... not required...)

 

1) Purchase Agreement.  Detailing...

• what you think you are buying
• the process and steps you are going to take to buy it
• the limitations that will kill the deal
• the payments that are going to be involved in the purchase
• who gets what when the deal falls through

 

2) Pre-Purchase Inspection

• Prove the plane is what you think you are buying...
• All parts are accounted for in the logs, nothing missing or incorrect, nothing extra...
• No funky history of being a damp FrankenPlane...
• Early in the PPI, look for things that are expense to fix, first.
• Make sure all the panel instruments/avionics are working as designed...
• Complete the PPI to the extent of a fresh annual only if it continues to make sense...

 

3) Transition Training

• Ground school
• Local ops 
• Short flights
• Performance T/O and Landings
• E procedures, E-descents, E-gear ops, Engine-outs, Go-arounds and stall series, recognition of both departure and landing...
• Xcountry IFR flight in IMC

 

4) New Owner’s kit

• Cover
• ipad and apps
• portable devices
• headsets
• CO monitor
• Engine heater
• tie-down rings and other jewelry...
• cleaners, waxes, polishing compounds

 

This is all stuff I have read about on MS... PP thoughts only, not a lawyer, CFI, or Mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

And that about sums it up @carusoam.

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

But this makes me think... I get a pre-buy done all the way through to a full annual and signed off by the AI who's local to the seller. Then I fly the plane home and my mechanic, lets say Don Maxwell just for argument, shows me several airworthy issues with the plane that the previous AI overlooked/missed/ignored, but signed off. Do I have any legal recourse against the AI who signed off the annual a few days prior?  If I do, then it seems the annual inspection is worth something. If not, then why have it done at all?

I think it is reasonable like @carusoampointed out that if you are buying a $30AMU plane it might be better to limit the PPI to spar corrosion, compression test, really good walk around. Then invest the rest of the money into fixing things.   If you are putting 120AmU into a plane then a 4AMU PPI would make sense.

I will give you a more specific example.    Mooney comes out of annual from Mooney Service Center.   Signed off as airworthy.   3 weeks later it spits out all the bottom spark plugs on takeoff. The wire caps were not tightened. The fix is a 30 minute fix. It could be no harm no foul.   Should the fee for annual be returned?  

Not that there is any data, but it would be interesting to see how many annuals have caused accidents vs. lack of maintenance that would have been caught at an annual.  I kind of think annuals should be every two years or say 200 hours.

[Dan208]

Thank you to everyone who took time to comment. Very good information here . I would like to acquire an E or F soon .  I can't  wait to learn all about flying and caring for my own plane .

[Danb]

 

 The amount of money needed in the first year is totally dependent on the plane purchased, my last two planes purchased were new or less than a year old, therefore my first three years of ownership was covered by the factory via warranty. 

Many on the forum purchased late model planes making the prebuy a nonevent.

Purchasing the most airplane for your needs should be strongly considered, I recently toured Dons facilities with Paul showing me a few planes with corrosion along with the associated repairs, depicting the need for a strong pre-inspection of hidden areas of the plane.  

A comprehensive list of items vital should be followed for the inspection. These items should be similar to our checklist and do list. Have the inspector verify that each item was inspected and signed off. Pictures of any area should accompany the inspection. In general the older the plane, where it has been stored,review of all the maintenance records, how many hours it has been flown on a yearly basis and if possible the attitude of the owner should be evaluated.

A full complete inspection based on the plane chosen could be very expensive, having a budget payed out for x amount of years should help in the plane chosen

eg. many newer planes result in large capital outlays while many older planes result is lower capital outlays but higher continued maintenance and upgrade costs.

Having realistic budgeting is essential in making a good choice. There must be a good equation or graph correlating ownership by the age and condition of our planes.

The end result is money is needed whether we buy new, almost new or old considering the plane by prebuy condition. 

This response was intended to be short.