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Any J's in New England (MA) I can check out?


Steve_B

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Hi All,

New member here and I'm in the market for my first plane.  I have been researching different planes and I keep coming back to a Mooney (they just look great).  Based on my research, it looks like a J model would fit the bill but I'd really like to actually sit (any maybe fly) in one before I pull the trigger.  I have been flying an Arrow in the club I belong to and it is on the short list of potential acquisitions but a Mooney is faster (and, IMO, just looks better).  My concern is around the rear cabin space and how that compares to an Arrow.  I know there are a lot of myths out there about Mooney's but my research shows they are on par with an Arrow for cabin size (at least up front).  I can't find any data on the rear cabin space.  I won't be carrying rear seat passengers (except our dog) very often, and if I do, it will be for short flights but I don't want my passengers to be overly uncomfortable.  I have looked in an E model and that looks really tight in the back.

 Are there any J's near me that I could meet up with (I'll buy lunch) so I can check it out?

Thanks,

Steve

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The space is comparable IMO. I have a C model that I feel is equivalent to the early arrows. The J would compare with the 74(?) and later arrows that were stretched.  The cabin curves sooner near your head so it feels tighter but shoulder width is very similar.  In fact, the Mooney is slightly wider IIRC.  The seating position differs. The Mooney sits closer to the floor so your legs extend more forward. 

Loading the rear cargo area differs, too.  The Pipers have a door that loads into the bottom whereas the Mooney opens near the top. There are pros and cons to both but I prefer the Mooney setup. 

There are several members in the NE that should chime in later. 

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Thanks for the reply.  That's the answer I was looking for :)

Yes, the 73 Arrows got the stretch and my research seemed to show that Mooney followed suit with the J model.

I still want to at least get in/out of one before committing to a purchase but as long as they are close (which I sort of expected) that is where my focus will be.

-Steve

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Thanks for the reply.  That's the answer I was looking for 
Yes, the 73 Arrows got the stretch and my research seemed to show that Mooney followed suit with the J model.
I still want to at least get in/out of one before committing to a purchase but as long as they are close (which I sort of expected) that is where my focus will be.
-Steve


It actually followed suite with the F & G models first. The B/C/D/E models are considered the short bodies and the mid bodies start with the F/G. The long bodies have even more room in them.


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33 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 


It actually followed suite with the F & G models first. The B/C/D/E models are considered the short bodies and the mid bodies start with the F/G. The long bodies have even more room in them.


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Thank Marauder.  I went back and looked at the article on the J model I had read (as that is what made me lean towards that model) and in addition to being a mid body, it has the more aerodynamic cowl and sloped windshield.  And it's faster. 

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2 hours ago, Steve_B said:

Thanks for the reply.  That's the answer I was looking for :)

Yes, the 73 Arrows got the stretch and my research seemed to show that Mooney followed suit with the J model.

I still want to at least get in/out of one before committing to a purchase but as long as they are close (which I sort of expected) that is where my focus will be.

-Steve

Mooney's first mid-bodied airframe was the F which was introduced at the end of the 1966MY (3 sold) and was likey Mooneys best selling aircraft of all time by production numbers.  A carburetted version of the airframe came out in 1968 and was known as the G model.  The J model is an F/G with a raked windshield and streamlined cowl design and was introduced in 1977. There is no difference in the airframe or its interior dimensions. 

The Arrow was born in 1967 as a retractable Cherokee 180 (that cabin is both narrower and shorter than the M20F/G/J).  Piper came out with the Arrow II in 1972. That is when they stretched the cabin 5 inches.  I believe it is still smaller than the M20F/G/J by the numbers but some prefer the cabin feel.  Mooneys are perfectly comfortable but one sits low to the floor with legs stretched out.  Not a lot of space between pilot and panel.

Edited by Shadrach
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53 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Mooneys are perfectly comfortable but one sits low to the floor with legs stretched out.  Not a lot of space between pilot and panel.

Thanks Ross.  I have read about sitting lower to the floor and being closer to the panel which is one of my reasons for wanting to get into one before purchasing.

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2 minutes ago, Steve_B said:

Thanks Ross.  I have read about sitting lower to the floor and being closer to the panel which is one of my reasons for wanting to get into one before purchasing.

I don't think its very different from the PA28 derivatives I have flown.   I like the Arrow and think it's an excellent XC plane and makes commendable performance on 180/200HP . The thing about the 180/200hp Mooneys is that they really out perform their power class in all respects.  They aren't the fastest certified planes in the sky, but they go faster, further and higher on a gallon of gas than almost anything else.  As long as winds are not prohibitive, I really prefer to fly at 10,000-13,000ft.  This is a very usable range of altitudes in my stock F model. There other singles in that space with me, but I don get a lot of traffic calls for Arrows, Skylanes, Cutlasses, Cardinals or Sierras.  

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55 minutes ago, Steve_B said:

Thanks Ross.  I have read about sitting lower to the floor and being closer to the panel which is one of my reasons for wanting to get into one before purchasing.

Actually there were a lot of Cs, E, Fs, and Js built from 1962 when the C was introduced to 1998 when the last J was built. The Fs and Js have an extra 5" of leg room compared to the Cs and Es.  The J replaced the F in 1977 as a aerodynamic cleanup. Many of the changes incorporated in the J became available to all the earlier models and there was quite a cottage industry doing mods to the older windshields, cowls, panels, etc. Here's 2 pics of N9249M, my first '66E, in it's original colors and as it looks  nearly 9000 hours later.  

Unless you're a long legged 6'2" pilot you might want to includes Es (and possibly Cs) in your search. The pre J models will be more bang for the buck and might be better equipped and close to the same speed. Since I'm 5'8" with a 29" inseam my backseat passengers have plenty of room as the 3rd pic shows.

http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm

Image may contain: airplane, sky and outdoor

IMG_20150426_183711511_HDR.jpg

IMG_20151030_115458221.jpg

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Mooney's first mid-bodied airframe was the F which was introduced at the end of the 1966MY (3 sold) and was likey Mooneys best selling aircraft of all time by production numbers. 

According to this source the C model was the most produced. mooneychart.pdf

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29 minutes ago, amillet said:

Mooney's first mid-bodied airframe was the F which was introduced at the end of the 1966MY (3 sold) and was likey Mooneys best selling aircraft of all time by production numbers. 

According to this source the C model was the most produced. mooneychart.pdf

You're absolutely right Alan, with four extra years of production it is the largest production run Mooney has ever made to date.  The F model was the top seller for every year it was in production except one.  I think the factory sales numebers are about as accurate as the POH's of the time.  Close enough, but not exact...

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45 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Unless you're a long legged 6'2" pilot you might want to includes Es (and possibly Cs) in your search. The pre J models will be more bang for the buck and might be better equipped and close to the same speed. Since I'm 5'8" with a 29" inseam my backseat passengers have plenty of room as the 3rd pic shows.

Thanks Bob (and others).  I'm 5'9" with a 30" inseam so it looks like I can can probably open my search up to older models (with the speed mods already done).  My preference is to keep it to a mid 70's or newer plane but I'm certainly open to others.

I still want to get inside one before moving forward with any acquisition though.

-Steve

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Thanks Bob (and others).  I'm 5'9" with a 30" inseam so it looks like I can can probably open my search up to older models (with the speed mods already done).  My preference is to keep it to a mid 70's or newer plane but I'm certainly open to others.
I still want to get inside one before moving forward with any acquisition though.
-Steve

I don’t see where you mention price point? That might narrow your search.
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4 minutes ago, Steve_B said:

Thanks Bob (and others).  I'm 5'9" with a 30" inseam so it looks like I can can probably open my search up to older models (with the speed mods already done).  My preference is to keep it to a mid 70's or newer plane but I'm certainly open to others.

I still want to get inside one before moving forward with any acquisition though.

-Steve

You should fit fine!  With those dimensions you will have the seat in the first or second notch. That means your rear seat passenger will have tons of foot and leg room.

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4 minutes ago, teejayevans said:


I don’t see where you mention price point? That might narrow your search.

I'm looking to keep it in the $80-$100K purchase price point (I may be open to higher for the right plane). I'm looking for a solid IFR platform with at least a 430W, 2 axis AP,  engine monitor and ADSB.  Steam gauges are OK.  Paint and Interior should be 7+.  I'm open to less upgrades for the right price but I really want a plane I can buy and fly (at least at first) without it being down for upgrades right after I acquire it.  I expect this to be my first & last plane so I will upgrade over time but I want to be able to enjoy it for a while  and get my IFR before upgrades (other than say ADSB and engine monitor).  I don't have my IFR right now but want to wait until I have my own plane to get it and I want to start that as soon as I do purchase.

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4 minutes ago, Steve_B said:

I'm looking to keep it in the $80-$100K purchase price point

The unicorn requirement here might be ADS-B, since a J with recent avionics upgrades is going to be on the high end.

If you're cool with doing ADS-B yourself, you can probably find an older J with WAAS in this price range. There's a zillion threads on pricing. 

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7 minutes ago, Steve_B said:

I'm looking to keep it in the $80-$100K purchase price point (I may be open to higher for the right plane). I'm looking for a solid IFR platform with at least a 430W, 2 axis AP,  engine monitor and ADSB.  

I have a '66E that meets your specs but is probably just outside your target price - it's not for sale - but that money will give you some nice options. You'll need to be patient since there supply for sale at any given time is very limit. Jimmy Garrison at https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm has a nice assortment and maintains an email list for interested buyers who get a first look so some planes change without ever making it to the ads. 

IMG_20180720_104754102_HDR.jpg

IMG_20180710_142512734_HDR.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I have a '66E that meets your specs but is probably just outside your target price - it's not for sale - but that money will give you some nice options. You'll need to be patient since there supply for sale at any given time is very limit. Jimmy Garrison at https://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm has a nice assortment and maintains an email list for interested buyers who get a first look so some planes change without ever making it to the ads. 

IMG_20180720_104754102_HDR.jpg

IMG_20180710_142512734_HDR.jpg

Bob, that is a beautiful plane/platform.  I came across it while reading other threads here on MS and I love what you have done to it.  I'm open to doing any and all upgrades myself (when I say "Myself" what I really mean is I buy the components and a very good friend of mine, who is an IA will will work with me on the installs for coffee and PIC time).  My main reason for wanting a minimum is that I want to fly it and not have it down for upgrades right away as I want to get my IFR.  My plan is to have the keys to a plane come springtime so I'm looking now as I know it takes time for the "right" one to come along.

I'll probably get in touch with all american but was hoping (probably unrealistic) to find one within a short GA flight of MA so we (my IA friend and I) can do a prebuy locally vs having to hire a service and/or fly commercially to do one. 

-Steve

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4 minutes ago, Steve_B said:

I'm looking to keep it in the $80-$100K purchase price point (I may be open to higher for the right plane). I'm looking for a solid IFR platform with at least a 430W, 2 axis AP,  engine monitor and ADSB.  Steam gauges are OK.  Paint and Interior should be 7+.  I'm open to less upgrades for the right price but I really want a plane I can buy and fly (at least at first) without it being down for upgrades right after I acquire it.  I expect this to be my first & last plane so I will upgrade over time but I want to be able to enjoy it for a while  and get my IFR before upgrades (other than say ADSB and engine monitor).  I don't have my IFR right now but want to wait until I have my own plane to get it and I want to start that as soon as I do purchase.

You have a lot of options in that area if you include pre-J models.  J models only will put you in the lower end of the offerings.  There is really no reason to buy a 40 year old airplane over a 50 year old airplane. In some cases, earlier models may have benefits. The company was owned by different entities through out the years. Cost cutting measures eliminated flush riveting around 1969 (It was reintroduced with the J model).  Manual gear (which many prefer) was discontinued in 1970. Hydraulic flaps and retractable step (which many prefer) discontinued in 1974. In truth they're all quite good, but some have nuances that may be more or less desirable. Like buying a vintage car there are differences from year to year.   I can see and feel the difference in a pre diamler-crysler  Mercedes Benz. I like the new cars quite a bit, but there are things I prefer about the older machines.  

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For that price I would look at something like this:

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/28161547/1967-mooney-m20f-exec-21?dlr=1&pcid=17527&crmid=614667&if=1

 

Personally I would add a G5 HSI before starting of your instrument training.

ADSB, good autopilot, little less than your price range, but you can use the savings for a future engine overhaul.

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Welcome aboard, Steve...

We have a pretty outgoing MSer at 6B6... with an M20E...

The short body Mooneys are great for retirement... perfect for  three and pretty long trips... Not bad for four for short trips...

The mid-body planes are great for flying long distances... and bringing  the family...

Go long body to bring everyone and everything with you...:)

 

It helps to define your mission as much as possible... type of flying you do, not just how big is your back seat?

Distances covered, POBs, Flying In IMC, over mountains, crossing lakes... East coast only... just to grandma’s with the kids... that kind of thing.

PP thoughts only, XBHS grad, go Hawks!

Best regards,

-a-

 

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