NotarPilot Posted November 17, 2018 Report Share Posted November 17, 2018 15 hours ago, Andy95W said: You could add a small annunciator light labeled 'Fuel Pump On'. A lot easier than moving the switch. Checklist usage also helps. When do you retract the flaps? That would be a good reminder- flaps up, pump off, flaps down, pump on. I had an light installed high in my field of view. I bought it at Spruce and it was fairly inexpensive to have installed. It reminds me to turn the pump off every time, I highly recommend this inexpensive solution. BTW, what’s a checklist? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted November 17, 2018 Report Share Posted November 17, 2018 This makes me wonder if the JPI has an indicator for the fuel pump being on other than different pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 17, 2018 Report Share Posted November 17, 2018 14 hours ago, NotarPilot said: I had an light installed high in my field of view. I bought it at Spruce and it was fairly inexpensive to have installed. It reminds me to turn the pump off every time, I highly recommend this inexpensive solution. How was the logbook entry signed off? Minor alteration? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotarPilot Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Mooneymite said: How was the logbook entry signed off? Minor alteration? Yes, it doesn’t get much more minor that adding a single light wired to the switch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooney1 Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 Why not just make a mental note and get in the habit of rembering to turn it on and off when appropriate. Seems silly to start spending money to move switches and such over just thinking about what you are doing. Checklist usage maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 I’ve forgotten it, because I’m interrupted by ATC around the time I would do the checklist. I’m going to ask my mechanic about adding a light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0TreeLemur Posted November 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 I've ordered one of these: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/al1orange.php?clickkey=9335 They don't seem to sell what I really wanted: one that mounts similarly to a toggle switch. You know, a light that would insert through the panel from the rear with a screw on bezel. I looked at the offerings at Digi-Key and they don't have that either. I'll have it installed. I realize now that I can also help to minimize the occurrence of pump abuse by just not switching it on during tank changes- that was a hold over from my time flying the good 'ol P28-R180, which was fuel injected. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 4 hours ago, Mooney1 said: Why not just make a mental note and get in the habit of remembering to turn it on and off when appropriate. THIS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 14 hours ago, Mooney1 said: Why not just make a mental note and get in the habit of rembering to turn it on and off when appropriate. Seems silly to start spending money to move switches and such over just thinking about what you are doing. Checklist usage maybe? 9 hours ago, Jim Peace said: THIS Yeah. That's like saying, "Why doesn't everyone just put the gear down prior to landing?". The answer is "because people get distracted". Checking in with departure control and getting a revised clearance right after takeoff is a great way to get distracted from turning off the fuel pump and completing the after takeoff checklist. Ask me how I know. As in the landing gear scenario, technology is the answer. Lights, bells, whistles, computer voices, whatever it takes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 7 minutes ago, Mooneymite said: Yeah. That's like saying, "Why doesn't everyone just put the gear down prior to landing?". The answer is "because people get distracted". Checking in with departure control and getting a revised clearance right after takeoff is a great way to get distracted from turning of the fuel pump and completing the after takeoff checklist. Ask me how I know. As in the landing gear scenario, technology is the answer. Lights, bells, whistles, computer voices, whatever it takes. Aviate navigate communicate, fly the plane then deal with Nancy giving you a revised clearance. I do agree on the landing gear situation. I would like to have that box that is more than a gear horn. I think it verbally alerts "GEAR" or something like that. This would be better time and money spent than a fuel pump light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 Installing an annunciator light for the boost pump is a great idea that never would have occurred to me without this thread. It will get done at an upcoming avionics install. This is why I love this website. Comments/questions: -It's part of my normal flow to turn off upon reaching 1000agl. But the pump appropriately becomes last priority if hand flying into IMC before 1000agl, starting a turn, and trying to talk to a busy departure controller at the same time. I've noticed it to still be on in cruise a couple of times under these circumstances. A light to remind me to come back to it would be really nice. -I turn the pump off after runup if waiting for departure to spare the pump and then turn it back on just before starting my takeoff roll. I have forgotten once or twice. A light reminding me high on the panel would be nice. -My old Dukes pump was overhauled 2000hrs ago in 1998 - does anyone do preventive maintenance on these or proactively replace? How fragile are they really? I've wondered if I should just carry a spare replacement pump in the back to increase my chances of making it home. -I think the Weldon pumps are rated for continuous duty? Does anyone just leave theirs on all the time? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpilot Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, DXB said: I've wondered if I should just carry a spare replacement pump in the back to increase my chances of making it home. Maybe the next time you go to start your C, assuming it's not bitterly cold, you should try starting it without using your electric pump. Just work the primer and see if it doesn't start relatively easily. That might make you reconsider carrying a spare pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Peace Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 1 minute ago, neilpilot said: Maybe the next time you go to start your C, assuming it's not bitterly cold, you should try starting it without using your electric pump. Just work the primer and see if it doesn't start relatively easily. That might make you reconsider carrying a spare pump. Is your point to see if you can just make it home on the mechanical? If so no way Jose !!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 24 minutes ago, DXB said: How fragile are they really? I've wondered if I should just carry a spare replacement pump in the back to increase my chances of making it home. In both cases where my Dukes needed overhaul, fuel was dripping from the case drain, but the pump ran and made pressure just fine. I've never been stranded. I suspect sudden, complete failures are the exception. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amillet Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 My J has a Boost Pump light in the annunciator panel. Bottom row on right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 Aviate navigate communicate, fly the plane then deal with Nancy giving you a revised clearance. But I would say running through your checklist is not aviating, navigating or communicating. And to be clear...Turning on the pump in case of engine pump failure, is aviating, because it’s required for flight.Turning off a pump because you don’t want to wear it out, is a nicety. Like turning on the cabin heat or turning off the landing light. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 7 hours ago, Mooney1 said: Why not just make a mental note and get in the habit of rembering to turn it on and off when appropriate. Seems silly to start spending money to move switches and such over just thinking about what you are doing. Checklist usage maybe? Great question, and an interesting opportunity, and/but... People are saying that human error still occurs...a tiny percent of times. Some fuel pumps are not rated for continuous ops... (note for TJ) The price of leaving one on can be an OH of the pump... There doesn’t seem to be any obvious signs that pump is still on... (not loud, not vibrating, not causing high fuelP) Cost of adding a light... is much less than an OH... The switch itself is difficult to see, in a sea of other switches... it doesn’t stand out as being on or off... A low cost yellow light, that is only on for a minute (?) May make a lot of sense for some... Compared to the similar challenge of leaving T/O flaps down... there are some more obvious signs that something is amiss... Visible out the window... ASI not matching expectation... Does anyone have a checklist similar to a reverse gumps check they use? @1k’, before leaving the white arc... Gear up Flaps up Pump off Trim for Vy A minute later (?), If climbing out at Vz, typically 120ias... Similar to a second reverse Gumps opportunity Trim Verify gear Verify flaps Verify pump Looks like each time we trim for speed early in the flight, is an opportunity to run a reverse gumps mental checklist... Gear Flaps Pump The challenge seems to be... what event is there that triggers the use of the check list... looks like trimming for speed is a great initiator for the reverse gumps. Notes... Some modern Mooneys have a light on the annunciator panel Some modern Mooneys turn the FP on and off automatically with throttle / MP... Fuel pumps have a pair of diaphragms... If one fails fuel leaks out the drain.... slowly at first... Fuel pump motors die slowly enough to recognize, most often... Some fuel pump impellers are sensitive to being run dry... PP thoughts only, not a CFI, nor mechanic... enjoyed the thought experiment! Let me know if I missed something... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooney1 Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 3 hours ago, Mooneymite said: Yeah. That's like saying, "Why doesn't everyone just put the gear down prior to landing?". The answer is "because people get distracted". Checking in with departure control and getting a revised clearance right after takeoff is a great way to get distracted from turning of the fuel pump and completing the after takeoff checklist. Ask me how I know. As in the landing gear scenario, technology is the answer. Lights, bells, whistles, computer voices, whatever it takes. Ummmmmmm....... You forget to put the gear down because you get distracted? Fair enough. But did you run a pre landing, before landing, or landing checklist depending on how you call it? If not then two errors, which could circle back to cockpit discipline or complacency. Technology is helpful agree 100% but do not allow yourself to get dependent on it. My point to the opening post was try and get into a habit, then follow it up with a written checklist. Beatings commence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 22 hours ago, MBDiagMan said: This makes me wonder if the JPI has an indicator for the fuel pump being on other than different pressure. Likely would not matter in your F because switching on the electric pump does little if anything to raise pressure above what the mechanical pump delivers when the engine is running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 4 hours ago, Jim Peace said: Aviate navigate communicate, fly the plane then deal with Nancy giving you a revised clearance. 1 hour ago, Mooney1 said: Ummmmmmm....... You forget to put the gear down because you get distracted? Yes. Distractions. Not one of the pilots I know who landed (or almost landed) gear up did because they planned to. They all tell of distractions that broke their routine. Even disciplined checklist adherents, professional pilots can become distracted. The same thing that makes a pilot forget an item (be it gear, or boost pump) can make him/her forget a checklist, or even to fly the plane. Technology, even technology as simple as a light bulb can be part of the solution. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, Mooneymite said: Yes. Distractions. Not one of the pilots I know who landed (or almost landed) gear up did because they planned to. They all tell of distractions that broke their routine. Even disciplined checklist adherents, professional pilots can become distracted. The same thing that makes a pilot forget an item (be it gear, or boost pump) can make him/her forget a checklist, or even to fly the plane. Technology, even technology as simple as a light bulb can be part of the solution. Nope, nope, nope...everyone that's ever geared up a plane has been a hack. It's next to impossible for a real pilot to do this, they use check lists! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 6 hours ago, Fred_2O said: I've ordered one of these: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/al1orange.php?clickkey=9335 They don't seem to sell what I really wanted: one that mounts similarly to a toggle switch. You know, a light that would insert through the panel from the rear with a screw on bezel. I looked at the offerings at Digi-Key and they don't have that either. I'll have it installed. I realize now that I can also help to minimize the occurrence of pump abuse by just not switching it on during tank changes- that was a hold over from my time flying the good 'ol P28-R180, which was fuel injected. This light mounts in a standard switch hole. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/lsdimled.php?clickkey=3026739 Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 5 hours ago, DXB said: Installing an annunciator light for the boost pump is a great idea that never would have occurred to me without this thread. It will get done at an upcoming avionics install. This is why I love this website. Comments/questions: -It's part of my normal flow to turn off upon reaching 1000agl. But the pump appropriately becomes last priority if hand flying into IMC before 1000agl, starting a turn, and trying to talk to a busy departure controller at the same time. I've noticed it to still be on in cruise a couple of times under these circumstances. A light to remind me to come back to it would be really nice. -I turn the pump off after runup if waiting for departure to spare the pump and then turn it back on just before starting my takeoff roll. I have forgotten once or twice. A light reminding me high on the panel would be nice. -My old Dukes pump was overhauled 2000hrs ago in 1998 - does anyone do preventive maintenance on these or proactively replace? How fragile are they really? I've wondered if I should just carry a spare replacement pump in the back to increase my chances of making it home. -I think the Weldon pumps are rated for continuous duty? Does anyone just leave theirs on all the time? Weldon pumps are good but also do fail. The one in my RV4 quit after 450 hours. I use it for take off and landings and for the many circuits I do in it. I took the pump head off the motor and disassembled the motor to find the bearings had dried out. I re-oiled them, reassembled everything and it works great again. it too has a panel mounted annunciation light. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 4 minutes ago, M20Doc said: Weldon pumps are good but also do fail. The one in my RV4 quit after 450 hours. Clarence You didn't use an $10 automotive fuel pump from Autozone? No wonders it quit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 18, 2018 Report Share Posted November 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, Mooneymite said: You didn't use an $10 automotive fuel pump from Autozone? No wonders it quit! We don’t have Auto-zone, so I bought a Weldon pump. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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