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Long Body Market?

smccray

By smccray
in General Mooney Talk

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Awful_Charlie Mentor

Awful_Charlie

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1 hour ago, exM20K said:

 ... However, it's difficult to do apples:apples since the TSIO550G from the factory comes with turbos, alternator, exhaust system, and on and on.  It's almost a complete engine/accessory package,...

Factory Lycoming comes with turbo, controls & exhaust, but starter and alternators are excluded (had to do this earlier in the year :mellow:)

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KLRDMD Grand Master

KLRDMD

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On 11/14/2018 at 1:41 PM, Bravoman said:

I really can’t agree that the operating costs of the Bravo are all that high. I say that though with a caveat. Some might argue that burning 18 to 19 gallons an hour in cruise  is high.

Many years ago I had a Bravo. I figured if I was going to burn 19 GPH in cruise, I wanted a second engine,.

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Bravoman Mentor

Bravoman

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2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Many years ago I had a Bravo. I figured if I was going to burn 19 GPH in cruise, I wanted a second engine,.

There is some validity to that. If I was doing a lot of over water, mountain or night flying I would have a twin for sure. I am sensitive to risk management and for that reason don’t fly at night anymore because if something happens to your one engine in a single your options have the potential of being greatly reduced if out of range of an airport. But the twin comes with significantly more maintenance expense and the potential of not one but two overhauls. 

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KLRDMD Grand Master

KLRDMD

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8 hours ago, Bravoman said:

There is some validity to that. If I was doing a lot of over water, mountain or night flying I would have a twin for sure. I am sensitive to risk management and for that reason don’t fly at night anymore because if something happens to your one engine in a single your options have the potential of being greatly reduced if out of range of an airport. But the twin comes with significantly more maintenance expense and the potential of not one but two overhauls. 

You also have to look at the specific engines. You can overhaul two IO-470 engines for about the same as one TSIO-540. Most people will change oil on a turbo at about half the hours as they do a normally aspirated engine (25 versus 50 hours), I know I do. Then you're down to just an extra prop to maintain. There's no question that a twin costs more to run than a single but the differential is much less than many think.

I don't fly much at night either and never really have. A few years ago when I was prepping for my multi-ATP check ride, the night requirement of 100 hours was my nemesis. Without this sentence I wouldn't have qualified: 

"A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner."

Today, after flying 24 years and 2,100 hours my logbook (I didn't really fly for the first 8 years after I got my license, family, work etc.) shows 83.5 hours of night. I do cross the Sea of Cortez regularly, but with a few minutes detour I could stay within gliding range of land. And I do fly over mountains pretty much daily but again, with slight deviations to my flight plan I could minimize that risk.

All airplanes are good and all airplanes are compromises. We each pick which options we can live with and which we can't.

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chuck459 Enthusiast

chuck459

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Observation confirmed.  I check the Ovation ads often because I LUST after an Ovation.  I own a very nice “J” which would be easy to sell.  I also have a friend who owns a “J” who happens to be an accountant.  We often talk of upgrading until he puts pincil to paper and brings me back to reality.  Here are some “R” vs “J” numbers that seem reasonable based on my airplane and a very nice Ovation GX I was recently looking at.

Initial cost:  “R” vs “J”   +120%

Speed:  “R” vs “J”    +20%

MPG:  “R” vs “J”    -30%

Maint:  “R” vs “J”    +50%

Eng OH:  “R” vs “J”    +10K

Time saved on a 500 nm flight:  45 min

Lust is a powerful vice however.

 

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carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

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Chuck,

You lost me on the maintenance numbers...

Two extra cylinders, gave you 50% more maintenance?

What drives this number that high in your comparison...?

So many annual numbers are the same from M20C to M20R. Storage, insurance, annuals, upgrades... very unbelievably similar...

My C had too many worn out systems, the O has more systems, but they don’t wear out as fast... or are just in newer condition...

 

Hourly ops costs are also a bit challenging... you can operate the O the same as a J.. the O carries a few more AF pounds so not exactly the same... but the opportunity to fly a bit faster, climb faster, descend faster is very optional...

While comparing hourly cost... including the distance covered, it is also important... distance between OHs is also very real...  all my trips have to go the whole distance.  The miles are set.  The time is variable...

M20J... 10gph 150kts

M20R... 15gph 175kts

 

The extra speed and comfort makes it easy to take people to grandmas house and back in the same day.

It helps when The plane fits the mission.... if the mission is $100 hamburger, the M20C is a bargain compared to the O...

Hanging out with accountants and discussing GA finance requires driving the conversation properly... aim to find the cheapest cost of money to buy the plane that fits your mission... otherwise your GA experience is going to be shorter than expected...

Makes hanging out with PPs that are engineers sound more enjoyable... :)

Go O!

Best regards,

-a-

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Niko182 Grand Master

Niko182

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1 hour ago, chuck459 said:

Observation confirmed.  I check the Ovation ads often because I LUST after an Ovation.  I own a very nice “J” which would be easy to sell.  I also have a friend who owns a “J” who happens to be an accountant.  We often talk of upgrading until he puts pincil to paper and brings me back to reality.  Here are some “R” vs “J” numbers that seem reasonable based on my airplane and a very nice Ovation GX I was recently looking at.

Initial cost:  “R” vs “J”   +120%

Speed:  “R” vs “J”    +20%

MPG:  “R” vs “J”    -30%

Maint:  “R” vs “J”    +50%

Eng OH:  “R” vs “J”    +10K

Time saved on a 500 nm flight:  45 min

Lust is a powerful vice however.

 

Remember that you're comparing a fully decked out G1000 ovation against a J with steam gauges and a 430W. not saying that the Steam gauges are bad, but Its hard to compare that aircraft to yours. I think its better to compare your J to a 94 to 04 R. then you're looking at a plane that costs 180K instead of 325K

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smccray Mentor

smccray

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2 hours ago, chuck459 said:

Observation confirmed.  I check the Ovation ads often because I LUST after an Ovation.  I own a very nice “J” which would be easy to sell.  I also have a friend who owns a “J” who happens to be an accountant.  We often talk of upgrading until he puts pincil to paper and brings me back to reality.  Here are some “R” vs “J” numbers that seem reasonable based on my airplane and a very nice Ovation GX I was recently looking at.

 Initial cost:  “R” vs “J”   +120%

Speed:  “R” vs “J”    +20%

MPG:  “R” vs “J”    -30%

Maint:  “R” vs “J”    +50%

 Eng OH:  “R” vs “J”    +10K

 Time saved on a 500 nm flight:  45 min

 Lust is a powerful vice however.

  

Availability of air conditioning on an airplane operated in Texas: Priceless

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exM20K Mentor

exM20K

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Chuck, initial cost is not meaningful by itself.  It will act as a scalar for insurance and interest/opportunity cost of money, but with current low rates, it’s not as big a part of total cost of ownership as you may think.  An extra couple thousand per year in interest paid (or not earned)may be worth it for mor speed, air conditioning, or FIKI.  Or maybe it isn’t.

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Speed:  “R” vs “J”    +20%

Time saved on a 500 nm flight:  45 min

Lust is a powerful vice however.

 

 

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