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Flap Extension Speeds

sailon

By sailon
in General Mooney Talk

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Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

Hmmm. People talk about loading overweight or on the edge of CG.and are roundly castigated for being test pilots.

But operating flight controls against the POH / Owners Manual and it's just ho hum, nothing happening over here . . . .

:wacko:

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PT20J
PT20J

14 CFR Part 1 defines VFE as "maximum flap extended speed". Part 23 certification rules define requirements at full flap extension because that is the worst case for the structure. (This was befo

Marauder
Marauder

I went through the TCDS as well. I was hoping that it would shed some additional insight on the topic. Instead, it confirmed what I believe is true, that the flap speed limitations on Mooneys is dicta

LANCECASPER
LANCECASPER

I think we've all done that once or twice. A few years ago I went to look at a Mooney Ovation to possibly buy. The owner took me up for a flight and he insisted that full flaps could be put out a

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PT20J Grand Master

PT20J

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, kortopates said:

Yes, a flap switch with a detent position for take off flaps, unlike the rest of the fleet till prior to G1000's.

I believe the three position flap switch (UP, TAKEOFF, LANDING) was introduced with the 205, but carried over to all the later M20Js starting around 24-3000 or thereabouts.

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Hank Grand Master

Hank

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33 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I believe the three position flap switch (UP, TAKEOFF, LANDING) was introduced with the 205, but carried over to all the later M20Js starting around 24-3000 or thereabouts.

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I've flown a 75? F where the flaps had only the three positions, it was a slider on the right edge of the quadrant. In my 70C, they are infinitely variable throughout the range, a spring loaded 3-position toggle switch; I typically land near the takeoff setting, but the calmer the wind the more flaps I use on final.

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T. Peterson Mentor

T. Peterson

Posted
Posted
On 11/11/2018 at 5:55 PM, carusoam said:

I have also seen the other side of Vne... with a m*P* CFI...  under the right conditions, not terribly amazing... under bumpy conditions, not terribly bright... 

But to get that in a POH where you want it, with the meaning that POH has...will require a whole lot of testing and documentation... that nobody has volunteered to support financially...

On the other side... over speeding with flaps extended...

There are plenty of Mooney pictures posted lately of repairs to the spar that supports the flap hinge...  it bends and cracks under the extra load... requires a brace to be added to fix...

How much extra? I don’t know...

So in a more refined plane with extra tools for slowing down and/or dissipating energy..?

Why make up new ideas to do the same thing that a documented procedure with the right tool would do better?

What more would you get by lowering the flaps too?

If hell has broken out inside your plane and three minutes of descent time is too much...  choices are limited, roll the dice, say a prayer.  Slow to Vfe to add flaps, proceed as necessary...? ( not recommended, but, nobody will fault  you...)

Know that bent and broken control surfaces are likely to become unevenly deployed... resulting in incredibly poor flying controlability?

PP thoughts only, just pointing out you have something better to use then the proposed old procedure for a prior Mooney.  If you haven’t received the training in their awesome descent power... I know a guy or several that can show you the way...

Descending with gear down and speed brakes deployed, throttle pulled, at max rpm, at gear deployed speed, is an E-ticket ride... and no fear of bent flight controls... 

The prop will be driving the engine, yes! :)

But not banging on and off the thrust bearings...

when hell has broken out, it is  one way trip to the ground... the plane is expendable.  Use it in a way that preserves the lives of all on board...

throttle out, prop in, gear down, speed brakes deployed... following the procedures in the POH to not exceed the speeds that shouldn’t be exceeded. There is both slowing and speeding back up involved.

this produces much better descent rates than flying slowly with the flaps deployed safely...  really.

I have received the training using the O1 engine limited to 2500rpm... 2700 Rpm of the O3 powered planes will be an improvement in the energy dissipation scheme...

Let me know if I have overstated something, or something needs adjustment... just trying to state that there is a better way in the POH.  Get to know it. :)

Best regards,

-a-

“..an E- ticket ride”…..not many know the origin. Sometimes I use the term in a passenger announcement if we encountered turbulence of one sort or another. Then I offer a free soft drink to any passenger that can describe the origin of the phrase. I have never had to give away more than one. Often no one on the plane knows. Of course I have to explain it to the flight attendants as they have no clue as to the meaning.

Really cool to see you use it!….uhhh I suppose I am guilty of thread creep…:(

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T. Peterson Mentor

T. Peterson

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Posted
12 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Yep. You can thank, or curse, MagicMountain for that!

Wow! You fellas are learned men in the ways of Disneyland tickets.

 I used that phrase all my life and then one day realized no one knew what I was talking about! Obviously you fellas would have been the exception. Of course what that probably means is that we are a bunch of old goats!!

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carusoam Grand Master

carusoam

Posted
Posted

Disney World FL opened in 1971…

I visited in 1973… about the time of the oil embargo…

Flew down on Eastern airlines…. :)

 

Went back again… giving a presentation on RFID technology somewhere around Y2K…. Splash Mountain really liked the idea of the early RFID technology… their customers wanted to spend money… but they had no place to keep money in their swim suits…. Chip on a wrist band was a great leap forwards… :)

A couple of weeks ago… attended a wedding at the Tree of Life, Disney’s Wild Kingdom….  Went on one ride at Epcot… ‘Soaring’  :)

 

Best cross country flight I ever had… flying the family to Disney World a dozen years ago in the O…!

PP thoughts only, not an electronics guru… or Disney guru…

Best regards,

-a-

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Pinecone Grand Master

Pinecone

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

“..an E- ticket ride”…..not many know the origin. Sometimes I use the term in a passenger announcement if we encountered turbulence of one sort or another. Then I offer a free soft drink to any passenger that can describe the origin of the phrase. I have never had to give away more than one. Often no one on the plane knows. Of course I have to explain it to the flight attendants as they have no clue as to the meaning.

Really cool to see you use it!….uhhh I suppose I am guilty of thread creep…:(

I remember before there were E-tickets.  Only A through D. :D

 

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flyboy0681 Grand Master

flyboy0681

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Posted
12 hours ago, EricJ said:

It was a great day when they got rid of those stupid ticket books.  ;)

I beg to differ, especially since Disney announced price hikes at the parks last week and that a one day admission to The Magic Kingdom will cost $189 on some high demand days. My first trip to Disneyland was back in 1977 and a ticket book, which covered admission to the park itself, cost $8.00. I'd much rather pay a 'la carte than prix fixe.

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jaylw314 Grand Master

jaylw314

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1 hour ago, kortopates said:

Maybe the phrase only has meaning to Disney Land in SOCAL and its all about geography, but I can't imagine it not having meaning to anyone out west unless we're talking Millenniums and GenZ etc!!

Ahem.  Disney phased out the ticket books in the early 80's.  The fact that you guys REMEMBER them simply dates you as OAF :D

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Will.iam Veteran

Will.iam

Posted
Posted

Neighbor just got back from their annual disney world trip and was complaining for the first time how disney has ruined the experience by having people having to schedule each ride so no spontaneous just go to whatever looks neat to the kids. Instead they are all heads down in an app or dragging their kids in a mad rush to get to the next ride in time. She saidthey saw alot of unhappy families this time. 

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GeeBee Grand Master

GeeBee

Posted
Posted
On 11/18/2022 at 5:07 PM, Will.iam said:

Neighbor just got back from their annual disney world trip and was complaining for the first time how disney has ruined the experience by having people having to schedule each ride so no spontaneous just go to whatever looks neat to the kids. Instead they are all heads down in an app or dragging their kids in a mad rush to get to the next ride in time. She saidthey saw alot of unhappy families this time. 

Which is why Bob Chapek was shown the door. There was not only unhappy families, there was unhappy Disney board members.

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Schllc Mentor

Schllc

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Posted
On 11/14/2022 at 11:43 AM, kortopates said:

Yes, a flap switch with a detent position for take off flaps, unlike the rest of the fleet till prior to G1000's.

Did you mean that g1000 models and beyond have no TO flap setting?  Because they actually do, or did you mean just the Vspeed?

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MikeOH Grand Master

MikeOH

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3 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Shooting gallery took A tickets.  Which I remember at the ONLY thing that took them.

You could combine the A, B, C, and D tickets in various combinations to get an E; didn't have to use them on the shooting gallery.

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kortopates Grand Master

kortopates

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Schllc said:

Did you mean that g1000 models and beyond have no TO flap setting?  Because they actually do, or did you mean just the Vspeed?

Mooney didn't use a flap switch with a detent switch till some late model J's when they first introduced a higher flap extend speed. Then they went back to the earlier flap switch in Long bodies without specifying a higher flap extend speed in the TCDS. But with the G1000's you essentially get a detent position for takeoff/approach flaps, but Mooney still didn't provide the higher flap extend speed for these models in the TCDS.

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Pinecone Grand Master

Pinecone

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13 hours ago, MikeOH said:

You could combine the A, B, C, and D tickets in various combinations to get an E; didn't have to use them on the shooting gallery.

When was that’s?

Last time I went with tickets was 1966 and you could not combine tickets.

But military could get books with all the tickets being good for any ride

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