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ReconMax

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You have a great resource there in Paul.  I wish I'd talked with him before buying my plane instead of after.  I'm sure he talked to you a bit about the value of an engine monitor as well, since I didn't see that in your initial search criteria or in any of the planes you were looking at.

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14 hours ago, johnlwebb@gmail.com said:

Thanks to everyone for pointers. I spoke with Paul for a bit on the phone. Turns out we live in the same vicinity. Thanks Paul for your time and wisdom. My thinking has changed on a few things from talking with you.

I am now a little more open to an E or an F and less focused on the C.

Also, you helped put things into perspective regarding panels, autopilots, engines, paint and interiors. So my options have expanded in some significant ways for finding the plane I want.

Thanks so much! I'll let you guys know how the search goes.

 

Hi there,

I'm in a similar situation: I also didn't fly for 12 - 13 years and started flying again last year.  I got my BFR and went shopping for a J model.  Prior to my hiatus I used to own an E model.  Great performance for the $$, but limited utility once I got my instrument ticket due to the outdated panel.  Usual advice about what your flying mission is obviously applies (that was my first airplane purchase and I didn't know what I was doing).  By the way, if shopping for an older model if you find one with an alternator conversion that's a bonus.  I was left stranded once when the generator failed.  The E had about 1,400 hours on the engine when I got it and I was only able to put 280 hours on it before it needed an overhaul.  Mike Busch has a persuasive argument for buying an airplane with a run-out engine vs mid time / high time; I'd recommend looking it up on Youtube.  One other thing I learned with airplane purchase no. 3, is the tremendous value in being able to 'interview' the seller, which helped put me in a comfort zone with the purchase.  Anyway, best of luck with your search!

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On 11/12/2018 at 3:27 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Just a quick update... The Garmin GFC500 is not STC's for any Mooney's prior to a J. So for a C, E, or F... either get one that already has an autopilot... or wait for the Trio, TrueTrak or Dynon coming out soon or not so soon???

 

This is such a bummer - I bought my M20E without an autopilot just for the GFC500 because they said "next 12 months E". Which would you recommend now?

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3 hours ago, DustinNwind said:

This is such a bummer - I bought my M20E without an autopilot just for the GFC500 because they said "next 12 months E". Which would you recommend now?

Hopefully in the next 12 months there will be at least one of the autopilots with an STC for the M20E. Trio, TrueTrak, Dynon, Stec, or Garmin. But it's a crap shoot.

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The C and E model Mooneys are some of the most fuel efficient cross country aircraft ever certified. When new, they were some of the most structurally sound aircraft that you could ever hope to own. Unfortunately, Mooney typically only corrosion proofed a portion of the airframe...usually in the fuselage but often not in the wings or empennage. Over the past few years members of this website have witnessed the scrapping of airframes that were rendered unairworthy due to corrosion, as the cost of repairs exceeded the value of the airplane or was simply too much a cost for the owner to bear. Consequently, finding a corrosion free, forty to fifty plus year old airframe becomes a challenge. Something that you should consider.

Another poster mentioned the Piper Comanche. The Comanche offers several advantages over the Mooney. First is a fully zinc chromated airframe. This greatly reduces potential corrosion issues. The Comanche also offers a larger, more comfortable cabin. It provides a large baggage door for easy access to the baggage compartment. You can also easily open the cowling for access to the engine compartment during your preflight inspections and during routine maintenance.

The Comanche does have some drawbacks as well. Don’t they all? This includes the AD requirement to dismantle, inspect and essentially rebuild the landing gear every 1000 hours. Additionally, there is a stabilator issue that can be corrected with a not real cheap fix. Finally, most of the older Comanches have some pretty archaic panel layouts. You can spend big bucks getting that modernized.

Other good alternatives include a Cessna 182 and a Grumman Tiger, both of which have the cost saving advantage of fixed landing gear. Fixed gear should save you roughly $1,000 per year on your aircraft insurance premium and also provide for a less expensive Annual Inspection and on-going maintenance savings. Something else to consider.

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2 minutes ago, BKlott said:

Other good alternatives include a Cessna 182 and a Grumman Tiger, both of which have the cost saving advantage of fixed landing gear. Fixed gear should save you roughly $1,000 per year on your aircraft insurance premium and also provide for a less expensive Annual Inspection and on-going maintenance savings. Something else to consider.

This is like telling the guy looking at a BMW on the lot... you know a 10 year old Corolla would be cheaper, and even cheaper to insure.

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1 minute ago, BKlott said:

A Tiger would be an awfully sporty looking and spiffy handling Corolla wouldn’t it?

Still a Corolla though with those spindly legs hanging out. ;)

I almost bought a Tiger once. But for all the money I'm spending to own an airplane... I'd prefer one that looks cool. To me (eye of the beholder), all cool looking airplanes are either retracts or tail wheels. Fixed tricycle gear airplanes just look like trainers to me. I wouldn't be an owner rather than own a fixed gear airplane. But that's just my opinion. 

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58 minutes ago, BKlott said:

Fixed gear should save you roughly $1,000 per year on your aircraft insurance premium

You can get insurance for on a 182 or Grumman Tiger for $200?  At 200 hours total time, i'm only paying $1200 for insurance.  I knew fixed gear would be cheaper, but I had no idea it would be THAT much cheaper. 

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5 minutes ago, skydvrboy said:

You can get insurance for on a 182 or Grumman Tiger for $200?  At 200 hours total time, i'm only paying $1200 for insurance.  I knew fixed gear would be cheaper, but I had no idea it would be THAT much cheaper. 

How many hours do you have in your Mooney (versus the OP who is a prospective new Mooney owner) and how much hull Coverage do you carry? Are you implying that all other factors being equal that the extra premium for retractable gear versus fixed gear is only $200? Would the resident Insurance providers like to comment on this topic? 

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58 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Still a Corolla though with those spindly legs hanging out. ;)

I almost bought a Tiger once. But for all the money I'm spending to own an airplane... I'd prefer one that looks cool. To me (eye of the beholder), all cool looking airplanes are either retracts or tail wheels. Fixed tricycle gear airplanes just look like trainers to me. I wouldn't be an owner rather than own a fixed gear airplane. But that's just my opinion. 

The Cirrus, Cessna TTX, Lancair Columbia and Grumman Tigers all look like Toyota Corollas or “trainers”? Really? Feel that way about the Cessna 177B Cardinal too?

Some of the above provide equal or comparable performance to many of the legacy retractable gear aircraft without the commensurate gear up landing risks or higher maintenance costs. In fact, one can argue that the Cirrus and Columbia / TTX Series have made the majority of legacy retracts obsolete.

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At 0  hrs in the Mooney and 100 total, I paid, $1500.  I also got a quote on a cheaper fixed gear (Warrior) which was $900.  I'm suggesting that the premium for the retract, all other things being equal, is a lot less than $1000.  More in the neighborhood of $500 - $600.  Don't let the retract insurance scare you.  When you get a quote, you may be pleasantly surprised.

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7 minutes ago, BKlott said:

The Cirrus, Cessna TTX, Lancair Columbia and Grumman Tigers all look like Toyota Corollas or “trainers”? Really? Feel that way about the Cessna 177B Cardinal too?

Some of the above provide equal or comparable performance to many of the legacy retractable gear aircraft without the commensurate gear up landing risks or higher maintenance costs. In fact, one can argue that the Cirrus and Columbia / TTX Series have made the majority of legacy retracts obsolete.

Look, it's all just opinion. And mine is no more valid than anyone else's.

But yes, I'd say the same about all of those. I know that a Turbo Cirrus, the Cessna TTX, and the Lancair Columbia are all super fast and efficient airplanes, and the Cardinal as well. They are likely more comfortable than my Mooney and some might even be faster. But they look like trainers to me. They just look silly flying around with the gear all hanging out. 

I'm glad there are still retracts that I can own and fly. There's just something cool about taking off and putting the gear away.  I don't fly for work. And my Mooney is just for fun. And so I want it to look good. And to my eye, fixed gear airplanes look like they are for students. Even if it is a half million dollar SR22 Turbo. 

If I was being purely practical... I'd sell the airplane and either drive or take Southwest. But it's not about being practical. It's about the joy. And if I can't put the wheels away... there's just no joy.

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6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Look, it's all just opinion. And mine is no more valid than anyone else's.

But yes, I'd say the same about all of those. I know that a Turbo Cirrus, the Cessna TTX, and the Lancair Columbia are all super fast and efficient airplanes, and the Cardinal as well. They are likely more comfortable than my Mooney and some might even be faster. But they look like trainers to me. They just look silly flying around with the gear all hanging out. 

I'm glad there are still retracts that I can own and fly. There's just something cool about taking off and putting the gear away.  I don't fly for work. And my Mooney is just for fun. And so I want it to look good. And to my eye, fixed gear airplanes look like they are for students. Even if it is a half million dollar SR22 Turbo. 

If I was being purely practical... I'd sell the airplane and either drive or take Southwest. But it's not about being practical. It's about the joy. And if I can't put the wheels away... there's just no joy.

Just so you know (and I have posted about this in the past) I have many fond memories of flying with my Dad in his 1964 C model. It was one of the most beautiful airplanes I ever saw. New paint, new interior, factory remanufactured engine and a freshly overhauled prop. I had hoped to fly it someday but life factors compelled him to sell it rather than keep it. Of course, shortly after selling it, circumstances changed and he could have kept it and enjoyed for years to come. I believe it was disheartening to him, going back to renting, after flying such a beautiful airplane. His log books reflect not much flying activity for the next twelve years. Then I got my license and all that changed.

The year that I learned to fly I ran across his old Mooney, sitting out on the ramp at another airport. It was the first time I had seen it since he sold it. I went out to look at it a stood there in disbelief. It’s once shiny paint job was now dull and faded. The glass was crazed and cloudy. There were rusted screw heads. The interior was worn. 

Then I remembered back to the first weekend he owned the airplane. After carefully washing the plane, he laid on his back on the ramp at Torrance Airport and cleaned every bit of grease and grime off the belly. The airplane was spotless and now it looked terrible. I stood there and sobbed, unable to understand how anyone could let that beautiful airplane deteriorate like that.

I love Mooneys too. Just wish I could buy a brand new 1964 C model, one that was fully factory corrosion proofed, and painted like my Dad’s. That would be great airplane! Sadly, that can’t happen.

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27 minutes ago, BKlott said:

I love Mooneys too. Just wish I could buy a brand new 1964 C model, one that was fully factory corrosion proofed, and painted like my Dad’s. That would be great airplane! Sadly, that can’t happen.

Just because your dad's much loved C model was badly neglected after he sold it does not mean there are not 50 year old Mooneys that are being treated with great respect. Corrosion is real but hardly universal and a plane can easily be painted any scheme and colors we can imagine - retro or better than factory new. And of course none of us would want a 50 year old instrument panel.

Here's an old '66E. 

IMG_20180710_142652446_HDR.jpg

IMG_20180710_142435375_HDR.jpg

IMG_20180720_104754102_HDR.jpg

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I'm not stuck on any particular plane. Mooneys appeal to me for their performance/cost (used not new), their cage, useful load, and their looks. No doubt, before I actually enter an agreement, I'll regress across the spectrum of other aircraft available at the same price point. If I find a substantially better deal, maybe I'll take it. In the end, I want capability. Looking good feels good. I 'll be putting the most important things in the world in my plane, my loved ones. Safety is paramount. That said, cost factors in and I need to find a bird with acceptable compromises.

You guys are all very knowledgeable and I appreciate your ideas.

I have one on my list now I'd like to go see. I'm having a little trouble buying into the asking price but potentially, ignorance on my part is at play. I'm investigating that now.

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  • 8 months later...

Just wanted to swing back to this topic I originally started when I first started considering a Mooney and found Mooney Space.

I will be taking possession of my M20J tomorrow and beginning my transition training. It is a very exciting time and I hope everything goes okay.

I started out looking at C models. I considered E, F, J and K models seriously before deciding that a J model would be most appropriate for me. I learned a lot by reading Mooney Space so, thanks to everyone for all the great content. Especially thanks to @gsxrpilot who provided a great deal of thought input for me to consider. He met with me personally and spent a good deal of time chatting with me on the phone. Thank you Paul for sharing your considerable knowledge with me.

Also, thanks to JD out at SWTA in Smithville, TX for doing a great PPI. Also, thanks to Parker Woodruff who helped me with insurance and will be helping me with my transition training.

 

My old airplane...

Airplane002.JPG.0c57f931eddbb24679573f28db5558db.JPG

My New airplane...

img_003.jpg.bd23bc4e748b3f8640c5350613583107.jpg

Guess I like red, white and gold... :P

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18 minutes ago, ReconMax said:

Just wanted to swing back to this topic I originally started when I first started considering a Mooney and found Mooney Space.

I will be taking possession of my M20J tomorrow and beginning my transition training. It is a very exciting time and I hope everything goes okay.

I started out looking at C models. I considered E, F, J and K models seriously before deciding that a J model would be most appropriate for me. I learned a lot by reading Mooney Space so, thanks to everyone for all the great content. Especially thanks to @gsxrpilot who provided a great deal of thought input for me to consider. He met with me personally and spent a good deal of time chatting with me on the phone. Thank you Paul for sharing your considerable knowledge with me.

Also, thanks to JD out at SWTA in Smithville, TX for doing a great PPI. Also, thanks to Parker Woodruff who helped me with insurance and will be helping me with my transition training.

 

My old airplane...

Airplane002.JPG.0c57f931eddbb24679573f28db5558db.JPG

My New airplane...

img_003.jpg.bd23bc4e748b3f8640c5350613583107.jpg

Guess I like red, white and gold... :P

didnt this used to belong to a Mooneyspcer that now owns an Acclaim? @m20 allegro something?

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