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Light Grease on Prop Blade


Skates97

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Flew about 2 1/2 hours today and upon landing have some very light grease coming from the root of the blade. Last time it was greased was annual last December so it's not a case of grease coming out after getting serviced. 

@Cody Stallings

20181110_132959.thumb.jpg.23c11f87688255f5a77978cbb99523d0.jpg

White line in the picture is not a scratch, just the way the light caught that spot. 20181110_150046.thumb.jpg.c311a7dbbeb8550408240cb15dd8b2a4.jpg

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I have heard the Above Statement for Years.

“Dont grease your Prop, an it won’t Leak”

If care is taken when lubricating a Hartzell Propeller, you will have no Problems.

The Hartzell uses a Quad-Seal that Ride on a Teflon strip on the blade for a sealing surface.

One or Both have been Compromised with this Propeller. It happens over time.

With the Above Propeller there is an Option to use a different type of seal vs the Quad Seal as it is very hard on the Teflon. That seal is the C3317-340-8.

Be sure an ask for that seal when your Propeller is being repaired, Iys the Same Oring used in the TurboProps, an it works very well.

I would opt for the reseal on this Propeller vs the O/H. There is about a $1500-$1800 dollar difference between the two.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Freemasm said:

Time to have the seals replaced. How old are they?  While apart, an overhaul isn’t too much more money. This is be a controversial statement but more than one OH shop owner told me not to grease them. Many seals are damaged by over pressure because the opposite zerk wasn’t removed when greasing. The grease will last as long as the overhaul unless it leaks.  A Hartzell rep also said same though he said he’d never admit to/put in writing. 

Let’s be careful with phrasing. An overhaul is very unlikely needed but a tear down and inspection is a great idea. “Overhaul” carries a lot of baggage for work that likely won’t be recommended by your prop shop. So tear down and repair as recommended by the prop shop is how i would phrase it. 

 

-Robert 

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Up here in Canada, it is mandatory to overhaul C/S props every 10 years, and that’s from date of  overhaul not service life. So if this week you buy a zero time prop that was overhauled September 2015, next overhaul should be September 2025.

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This Propeller had 427hrs SMOH.

Operator did not Grease his Propellers because his thinking was “propshop greased it”.

At 425hrs the Propeller started to self destruct from steel on steel actuation.

The Grease that remained inside this Propeller was like Valve Grinding Compound.

5FFA2961-A82C-493C-B3B0-066EA45AB54F.jpeg

DF2D85B2-2A82-414F-B478-C602249D4B7E.jpeg

93C757BB-2B75-424C-923F-3C72D631D34E.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Freemasm said:

Rightly or wrongly, I phrased it the way I intended. The shop down here in Central Florida that I use, the price delta is less than $1K for a tear down vs OH. 

Really a function of how much is left on the blades. 

-Robert

Edited by RobertGary1
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33 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Really a function of how much is left on the blades. 

-Robert

Exactly! So if your prop needs new seals, why OH and grind away on the blade faces??? Do you replace the timing belt on your car when changing the oil? Do you tear down and rebuild your porch when working on the roof?

If work needs to be done, do it, but no need to do additional work "just because."

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Exactly! So if your prop needs new seals, why OH and grind away on the blade faces??? Do you replace the timing belt on your car when changing the oil? Do you tear down and rebuild your porch when working on the roof?
If work needs to be done, do it, but no need to do additional work "just because."

I’m assuming the grinding is only done as necessary.
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5 hours ago, Cody Stallings said:

No Sir.

The grinding is done per the Hartzell O/H Manuel weather it needs it or not.

Hi Cody,

A few questions for you.  

How do you grease your own propeller in service.  I was taught years ago to remove the trailing edge grease fitting or plug and greas until clean fresh grease comes out.  Now Hartzell calls for much less grease.

Can one switch to Aeroshell 5 from Aeroshell 6 in the field or does the prop have to go to a shop to be disassembled and have the old grease cleaned out?

Can you post the page from th manual which states the requirement to grind the blade during overhaul?

Clarence

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3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Hi Cody,

A few questions for you.  

How do you grease your own propeller in service.  I was taught years ago to remove the trailing edge grease fitting or plug and greas until clean fresh grease comes out.  Now Hartzell calls for much less grease.

Can one switch to Aeroshell 5 from Aeroshell 6 in the field or does the prop have to go to a shop to be disassembled and have the old grease cleaned out?

Can you post the page from th manual which states the requirement to grind the blade during overhaul?

Clarence

You are correct, just remove the fitting an grease.

 

Yes you can purge the #6 out of the Propeller with #5 in the Field, no propshop interaction needed.

When I’m back in the shop I will get the information about blade grinding for you.

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13 minutes ago, Cody Stallings said:

You are correct, just remove the fitting an grease.

 

Yes you can purge the #6 out of the Propeller with #5 in the Field, no propshop interaction needed.

When I’m back in the shop I will get the information about blade grinding for you.

Cody

Like Clarence, I was originally trained to pump until grease came out the opposite fitting.  Then, Hartzell said don’t do that with aluminum hub props, pump only a few ounces, not to exceed some number of pumps (the number escapes me at the moment).  This is because pumping more might force grease into the dry cavity in the prop and this can affect normal operation.  I assume purging is similar...pump until old grease is out.  Do you find grease in props where it should not be?  I paid the price doing an annual years ago where I pumped until it came out the cross port and the owner checked with Hartzell who said the prop needed tear down....so the annual became a freebie. I’ve been really cautious about following the manual ever since.  Also, my understanding was the aero shell 5 can be mixed with 6, as long as you follow the temperature restriction.  So, the ultimate question is....is it better to purge all the grease and risk the grease going in the wrong part of the prop or better to fly with a mix of aero shell 5 and 6?  By the way, thank you for taking the time to educate us.  These props are expensive and small missteps can cost us.  I too understood that the overhaul requires grinding, which eats into blade life.  

Rob

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4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

 I was taught years ago to remove the trailing edge grease fitting or plug and greas until clean fresh grease comes out.  

Same here.  As an A&P, I did it that way for 25 years and probably a hundred prop greasing/annual inspections (in the shops where I've worked and on my own airplanes) but was told here that I would blow the seals out of my prop if I did it that way.

It seems like the hub corrosion in the pictures, above, could've been avoided by pumping in fresh, clean grease.  

It makes me wonder if Hartzell wants us to leave old, contaminated grease in our hubs so that they can sell more of them.

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1 hour ago, takair said:

Cody

Like Clarence, I was originally trained to pump until grease came out the opposite fitting.  Then, Hartzell said don’t do that with aluminum hub props, pump only a few ounces, not to exceed some number of pumps (the number escapes me at the moment).  This is because pumping more might force grease into the dry cavity in the prop and this can affect normal operation.  I assume purging is similar...pump until old grease is out.  Do you find grease in props where it should not be?  I paid the price doing an annual years ago where I pumped until it came out the cross port and the owner checked with Hartzell who said the prop needed tear down....so the annual became a freebie. I’ve been really cautious about following the manual ever since.  Also, my understanding was the aero shell 5 can be mixed with 6, as long as you follow the temperature restriction.  So, the ultimate question is....is it better to purge all the grease and risk the grease going in the wrong part of the prop or better to fly with a mix of aero shell 5 and 6?  By the way, thank you for taking the time to educate us.  These props are expensive and small missteps can cost us.  I too understood that the overhaul requires grinding, which eats into blade life.  

Rob

I have heard the same thing about greasing a propeller.

An during normal maintenance just a few pumps is all that is needed. And Yes, you can Mix #5 with #6 an Long as you don’t fly in temps of -40.

Where you run into trouble greasing a aluminum hub Prop is #1 Putting the grease in two fast #2 Not cleaning the hole out that the grease fitting was removed from.

Putting grease in to fast will fill the center section of the hub, an pumping the grease in to fast will do the same thing.

A basic grease gun will put the grease in the Propeller, faster than it can come out the other side.

Yes, We deal with props with grease in the wrong places all the time.

BUT!!

There is a known problem with the new Aeroshell 6, this stuff is breaking down to a light oil, an exiting the propeller, leaving no lubricant behind to speak of.

Will say this in Closing.

I don’t think Cont or Lycoming would tell you to only use a little oil.

Or Airhawk would tell you to use a little Air.

If you scrap Bearings, Hub or a whole Propeller from not greasing it properly you won’t be going to Autozone to get new parts.

 

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OP, Cody can tell you if I’m wrong, but your choice between reseal and overhauled is gonna depend on how long the prop has been in service... if it’s past the 6 or 7 years since last overhaul, most shops are gonna want to overhaul it.  I just had my 700 hour, 12 year prop overhauled.  It looked just like yours.  Oil was also on my cowl and windscreen. I can tell you, it’s expensive, especially if they have to do any extra work inside...

Edited by Ragsf15e
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4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

The local prop shop here almost never recommends an overhaul for part 91 because it shortens the life of the blades. As I recall hartzell overhaul recommendation is at 12,000 hours  

-Robert 

2000hrs or 3000Hrs Recommended TBO

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7 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

OP, Cody can tell you if I’m wrong, but your choice between reseal and overhauled is gonna depend on how long the prop has been in service... if it’s past the 6 or 7 years since last overhaul, most shops are gonna want to overhaul it.  I just had my 700 hour, 12 year prop overhauled.  It looked just like yours.  Oil was also on my cowl and windscreen. I can tell you, it’s expensive, especially if they have to do any extra work inside...

Mine was new 11 years and about 600 hours ago. Nothing on the cowl and windscreen as of now. Researching options.

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On 11/10/2018 at 5:03 PM, RobertGary1 said:

Let’s be careful with phrasing. An overhaul is very unlikely needed but a tear down and inspection is a great idea. “Overhaul” carries a lot of baggage for work that likely won’t be recommended by your prop shop. So tear down and repair as recommended by the prop shop is how i would phrase it. 

 

-Robert 

Groan.  When my prop started leaking, my IA winced and said he had been having bad experiences with the regional prop shop wanting to overhaul everyone's props so he warned me ahead of time.  I told the prop shop that I only wanted a repair and reseal on my prop, and that I did NOT want an overhaul.  Turns out, my IA was wrong--their response was to condemn both blades and tell me I needed to buy a new one.  

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6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

 

Groan.  When my prop started leaking, my IA winced and said he had been having bad experiences with the regional prop shop wanting to overhaul everyone's props so he warned me ahead of time.  I told the prop shop that I only wanted a repair and reseal on my prop, and that I did NOT want an overhaul.  Turns out, my IA was wrong--their response was to condemn both blades and tell me I needed to buy a new one.  

Sure, no guarantee that the shop won’t find that your a&p has ground it down below limits over the years. 

You can sell it to the experimental guys who will fly it another 20 years  

-Robert

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