Help me pick a Mooney! (or talk me out of Mooneys if you can!)

[Yetti]

4 minutes ago, Hank said:

P.S.--flying hurricane relief, the loading crews were shocked when I told them that flying solo after 3-1/2 hours that I could carry 600 lbs. Other than twins, all the other planes I saw on the list had capacities of 250-400 lbs. Typically, though, I run out of space before useful load, because I don't carry bricks or many boxes of books.

Cases of canned dog food, green beans, and corn in the floorboards will help use up some of the useful load

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, doc_arcadia said:

The unleaded fuel should be easier on the engine.

Doc...

1) the reason the lead is in the fuel... it was there to be nicer to the engine... exhaust valve lubricant and octane boost to avoid pre-ignition issues.

2) we now have 100LL... which indicates Low Lead...

3) modern engines, as in built in the 90s and later... don’t have the strict requirement to need lead...

4) the lead is a ‘octane raiser’ which also helps being nicer to engines...

5) The ‘STC’ is a document that reports the work done, proving the product is safe to use in your plane...

6) The important other things specific to your plane, can be seals and pump parts and other small details...

7) One thing that MooneySpace is good at... supporting the calls for vendors to pay attention to Mooney needs...

8) If there is a good fuel available via STC, let’s call to find out what is needed for a Mooney version of the STC...

9) the fine print indicates that UL94 is most likely not the fuel to replace 100LL in Mooneys... Look at Swift’s UL102 documents for a closer match...

https://swiftfuels.com/fuel/

10) hopefully KSQL will have that too. 

11) the UL94 drop in replacement is for the old red 80LL version of avgas that has been replaced with an STC for ‘mogas’ or auto fuel with no alcohol in it...

12) Are you up on your fuel details by chance?  Winter blends, summer blends, octanes, compression ratios, alcohol content... that sort of thing?

Want to give the Swift guys a call?

Best regards,

-a-

I’m pro-environment when able... (in case it doesn’t sound that way. Decades working on biodegradable, reusable, recyclable, ingestible, and/or natural polymers...) 

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Cases of canned dog food, green beans, and corn in the floorboards will help use up some of the useful load

I took what They gave me, including cases of water, bags of diapers and containers of infant formula.

[doc_arcadia]

Thanks to all the commentors. I still have problems accepting that the prices asked are quite correct. If I'm going to pay ~$65 for a 1966 carbureted M20C, then might as well buy this: 

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27310807/1981-mooney-m20k-231?dlr=1&pcid=17527&crmid=614667&if=1

 

From the same vendor. Yeah, there's a few more hours on the engine, and the engine rebuild is a bit more ... but, after paying ~$25K for an engine rebuild on the 231, I'd have a turbocharged, fuel injected, very fast aircraft. It doesn't seem quite realistic to me that the 1966 M20C has just about the same price.  

[Marauder]

Thanks to all the commentors. I still have problems accepting that the prices asked are quite correct. If I'm going to pay ~$65 for a 1966 carbureted M20C, then might as well buy this: 
 
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27310807/1981-mooney-m20k-231?dlr=1&pcid=17527&crmid=614667&if=1
 
From the same vendor. Yeah, there's a few more hours on the engine, and the engine rebuild is a bit more ... but, after paying ~$25K for an engine rebuild on the 231, I'd have a turbocharged, fuel injected, very fast aircraft. It doesn't seem quite realistic to me that the 1966 M20C has just about the same price.  

The engine on the 231 is at TBO. One of the 231 owners can chime in, but I suspect it is a pricey overhaul. $40k more? You need to look at the details...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Niko182]

5 minutes ago, doc_arcadia said:

Thanks to all the commentors. I still have problems accepting that the prices asked are quite correct. If I'm going to pay ~$65 for a 1966 carbureted M20C, then might as well buy this: 

 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27310807/1981-mooney-m20k-231?dlr=1&pcid=17527&crmid=614667&if=1

 

From the same vendor. Yeah, there's a few more hours on the engine, and the engine rebuild is a bit more ... but, after paying ~$25K for an engine rebuild on the 231, I'd have a turbocharged, fuel injected, very fast aircraft. It doesn't seem quite realistic to me that the 1966 M20C has just about the same price.  

I would pass on that. especially considering how short the trips are. Also getting the cheapest variant of an airplane in most cases is a pretty dangerous move. 25K for an engine rebuild is also a tad bit optimistic. I believe back in 2007 when my parents overhauled their old 231, they paid somewhere around 45k for the rebuild.

[doc_arcadia]

5 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I would pass on that. especially considering how short the trips are. Also getting the cheapest variant of an airplane in most cases is a pretty dangerous move. 25K for an engine rebuild is also a tad bit optimistic.

Noted and agreed. The 1981 231 is  bit more than my mission requires.

[carusoam]

Expect that each plane model has a range of prices...

Baseline for a C is near 50...

Baseline for a K is near 100...

Many new buyers fall in a trap... getting a plane at the bottom of the price range is terrible for a first time buyer with low experience...

Add your mechanical experience to the ownership challenge...

Then add the lack of experience flying a turbocharged, high altitude, X-country machine...

One step at a time, unless flying is the only thing you want to do for the next two years...

Eat, sleep, train aviation...

It is super challenging to add this much training to an already busy schedule...

It isn’t book learning or a weekend course...

A new engine for a K is near 50k. You can look that up...

@gsxrpilot gave you a good method to go from C to K... follow his lead.

I gave you M20C to M20R advice...

@Hank gave an excellent review of Life in the C lane.   Dr. Dev flys one of the nicest Cs... in case you are wondering if doctors can’t or don’t want to stay in the C lane?

Get on the steep learning curve to get what you want. There is no prize for skipping steps. You won’t be happy with yourself...

We have a guy that wrote much about his low time experience flying in a high performance Mooney... it is a story about the steep learning curve...

@doc_arcadia are you able to travel to Texas to see the plane at AAA?

A good conversation with David about M20Cs will help you answer the question if Mooneys are the right plane for you... I had the conversation with David in the late 90s.  Bought the M20C in y2k... went back around 2009 for the big version of the M20C... go Ovation...!

Took some time off from flying once... learning to fly (again) in a Mooney is not very sensible... flying is difficult enough as it is...

Best regards,

-a-

[doc_arcadia]

I can certainly go to Texas ... but who is David? I'm guessing from the context that he's involved with AAA. 

[Hank]

2 minutes ago, doc_arcadia said:

I can certainly go to Texas ... but who is David? I'm guessing from the context that he's involved with AAA. 

David and Jimmy are All American Aircraft. 

[carusoam]

David is the number two guy at AAA... a giant wealth of Mooney knowledge...

Jimmie is the number one guy... a giant wealth of commercial Mooney knowledge...

Start with David... work your way up to Jimmie.

When you get that far... you will be sure how the Mooney fits your mission, the costs, and the value...

You can have a PPI set up for your acquisition, and some TT to help bring you up to speed and get your new steed home...

In the odd event that the Mooney doesn’t fit your desires today... you can be sure that you explored them fully with a visit...

You will get the opportunity to put your eyes on the major differences between the body styles and instrument panel options...

How does that sound?

Best regards,

-a-

[doc_arcadia]

OK, thanks for the advice!

[Raptor05121]

15 hours ago, teejayevans said:

No Mooney can use UL94 that I know of.

Carb'ed airplanes can. My TCDS lists "minimum 91 octane or 100LL"

15 hours ago, doc_arcadia said:

According to

https://swiftfuels.com/stc/

 

The carburated Mooneys can use UL94

Yup. We're 8.5:1 whereas the IO-360 guys are 8.7:1

[steingar]

If the M20c has stuff like updated avionics, autopilot, and ADSB it is likely worth its price. You’ll spend more than that outfitting your aircraft with decent radios. Do be prepared to spend a premium price for a premium aircraft. Oh, you can get Rangers in the thirties, but they won’t have much in the way avionics. When it comes to Mooney’s, you get what you pay for.

[Ragsf15e]

I’d echo a few earlier comments...

Of all the short/mid bodies, get a J if possible.  C-J will all cost about the same to operate, but a decent J is 20+ years newer, faster, and hopefully, less to maintain.  

You’ll never be flying your J and wishing you were going 15 kts slower (on same fuel burn) in a C, E, F. Reverse is not true.

Get one that’s priced right, sure, but that doesn’t mean pay less.  In fact, look for the pricier ones.  Just make sure it’s stuff you need and it’s priced fairly.  Trust us, you would pay much more than the asking price premium for upgrading a lesser airplane to the same avionics, interior, autopilot, paint, engine, etc.

This is true, but hard to fathom... purchase price isn’t all that important because it’s overcome by operating and maintenance expenses very quickly.

 I love my F, but I wish I’d spent an extra $30 AMU and got a similar J.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Ragsf15e

[ArtVandelay]

I’d echo a few earlier comments...
Of all the short/mid bodies, get a J if possible.  C-J will all cost about the same to operate, but a decent J is 20+ years newer, faster, and hopefully, less to maintain.  
You’ll never be flying your J and wishing you were going 15 kts slower (on same fuel burn) in a C, E, F. Reverse is not true.
Get one that’s priced right, sure, but that doesn’t mean pay less.  In fact, look for the pricier ones.  Just make sure it’s stuff you need and it’s priced fairly.  Trust us, you would pay much more than the asking price premium for upgrading a lesser airplane to the same avionics, interior, autopilot, paint, engine, etc.
This is true, but hard to fathom... purchase price isn’t all that important because it’s overcome by operating and maintenance expenses very quickly.
 I love my F, but I wish I’d spent an extra $30 AMU and got a similar J.

I agree with everything except finding an airplane with avionics, interior, AP, paint you like may be challenging if you’re a picky. It may cost more to upgrade yourself, but then you get exactly what you want. I guess it depends on whether this is just a plane, or is this your last plane.

[Mooneymite]

57 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

You’ll never be flying your J and wishing you were going 15 kts slower (on same fuel burn) in a C, E, F. Reverse is not true.

I bought my C 20 years ago and I'm still satisfied that it fills my needs.  Every time I look at the cost delta for a few extra knots, it never computes.  If I had different needs/requirements, a J might make sense.

If I bought a brand new Mooney Ultra, I would love the new plane smell, but it wouldn't do the job appreciably better than my C. 

Match the plane with the mission.

 

[carusoam]

Summary?

1) All Mooney’s are good based on design and construction criteria...

2) They become individuals the older they are since they left the factory...

3) The first plane you get is a great teacher  for buying your forever plane...

4) economics are important... the care and feeding takes more than the acquisition... similar to having another car in some cases...

5) Maybe you buy your forever plane because you know your mission and the mission doesn’t change, very much...

6) See how many people are flying around in Dad’s Mooney that was first purchased decades ago... or bought one based on Dad’s experience from decades ago... there are a few around here...

7) WAAS and ADSB are key words to be looking for... Both are good to have already.  Know what is needed, what you want, and what is in the plane already.

8) buy your last plane first... something to consider. But, many of us fly for an indefinite length of time.  The mission changes a bit from hauling a growing family around, to flying long into the retirement years.

9) my favorite Mooney ownership story is Bennett’s... an engineer in retirement that updated his plane with something every year.  It always looked brand new... Bennett planned his retirement from GA ownership deep into his Octogenarian phase...  a great accomplishment...  my second favorite story is Bob’s, who’s retirement plane is looking beautiful and getting better! Go @Bennett

10) Recently the person who purchased Bennett’s plane announced his acquisition and MSers knew the plane better than they knew the pilot.

11) find somebody selling their long owned forever plane... and you will see a fantastic ship... avoid getting something in the lowest bracket of a model... that is a great plane for somebody else... we have those people here as well... they have skills that not everyone has... or maybe finances... or both...

12) Some airplanes really have more invested in their instrument panel than the entire plane is worth... because they can.

13) Independent PPI... important, and imperfect, at the same time...

14) Don’t spend the entire aviation budget on the acquisition... expect something to not get found in the PPI, something will break the first year, or you find you want to add something as you learn more...

15) What makes it worth it through the years... the ability to travel comfortably in an hour what would ordinarily take 5 - 7 hours in a car...  skipping the madness of ‘we have to be on the road by...’ or having a light rain for hours leave you stuck on I-95 in CT... Being home on time for those important family events...

16) Flying isn’t perfect all of the time... a well equipped Mooney will give options that aren’t available by automobile...

17) The list goes on... got two homes? Got two offices? Did you move out of state to find work? Do you like to travel and be in charge of your time? There are MSers that do this...

18) Gus’ math example... M20C 150mph...  My long body... 200mph

My trip 200miles, by car...250miles...

Long body flight time... hour and ten minutes...

Short body flight time... hour and twenty minutes... 

My M20C cost 1/10th of what my M20R cost...

Proof that a good M20C is a great value!

Proof that my M20C wasn’t a very nice one...

19) Fast, efficient, factory built, designed by engineers, loved by engineers, and...

20) Pilot Perfect!

Let me know if I missed something...

I got the opportunity to see both Gus and Bob, and their copilots at the Mooney Summit this year. Real people!

Best regards,

-a-

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

 

You’ll never be flying your J and wishing you were going 15 kts slower (on same fuel burn) in a C, E, F. Reverse is not true.

1.) Most Cs aren’t 15 knots slower than a J.

2.) I could’ve had a J, and afforded a J, but like Gus I would rather have a C.  Also, I have never wanted the J because it doesn’t fit my mission as well. 

3.) Do you have any idea how much 100LL I can buy with the difference in purchase price and insurance?  Or the lower operating costs of the Johnson Bar and carburetor instead of electric gear and fuel injection?  Or the fact that I never, ever have to worry about a hot start?

4.). You might be forgetting that one of his criteria was the ability to burn 94UL. Possible with a C, not with an F/J. 

[INA201]

I bought a J because it seemed like the best all around plane that Mooney has produced without a turbo.  When you can beat an SR20, and a Diamond in the performance and economics equation I was sold.  However, a C has an awesome economic and performance matrix that'll knock out an Arrow, Archer, Grummans, etc., and even the Diamond.  Unreal!  You are at the right place.

[Niko182]

What about a an m20E with the Jbar, and some speed mods such as a lopresi cowl and a 201 windshield. An E with all the speed mods is usually faster than any of the NA 360 variants.

[BKlott]

Both the Mooney A2-A Aircoupe and the Mooney M10 Cadet are approved for the UL94 Avgas. The A2-A is considered to provide superior performance than the M10.

Edited November 5, 2018 by BKlott

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Niko182 said:

What about a an m20E with the Jbar, and some speed mods such as a lopresi cowl and a 201 windshield. An E with all the speed mods is usually faster than any of the NA 360 variants.

I owned one of the nicest C's in the country for a couple of years. I bought it and sold it right at the top of the range for M20C's. I loved that airplane and flew it all over the country. All things being equal I always wished I'd spent another $15K and it was an E. Ditching the carb'ed O360 for the injected IO360 is 20 more hp, lower fuel burn at LOP settings, no carb icing. And hot starts are a technique problem. It's easy to learn to hot start a Mooney. 

I'm in complete agreement with @Niko182. An E with all the LoPresti speed mods... and they are all available will give you a short body M20J. And will actually be faster than the actual M20J's. And you can pick up a really nice one that's been upgraded already, for $35K to $50K less than a similarly equipped M20J. 

Nothing wrong with a J, but if you don't need the extra comfy back seat, why carry around the extra 10" of fuselage. And you can't get one with a J-bar.

[MIm20c]

What type of flying experience do you have?  

The C might be the most expensive choice you can make. From what I’ve seen (and my personal opinion) there is very little to be gained going from a C to different NA Mooney of similar vintage. Many people moving up jump into an Ovation/Bravo/252.  If I move up in the future and stay with the Mooney it will probably be a Bravo if I can find the right one. 

[Ragsf15e]

Another go/no go for me (especially if you want to fly ifr) is to find one with a decent 2 axis autopilot.  They can be as expensive as a top overhaul or more!