jaylw314 Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: This was Friday morning early. The wind was right down the runway. I don't know how strong, we don't have weather at 84R. But I was out early, did three T&G's and put her back in the hangar. It was just good to get out and fly. The old guys sitting around the airport were surprised and thought something might have been something wrong. I'm the one guy at this little airport, who is typically going a few states away when I take off in my Mooney. No, I just wanted to fly and didn't have any place to go. That's very sad. It seems like most of the small airports I putz around here in Oregon there still seems like a fair amount of activity, but since I wasn't flying 25 years ago, I don't really have anything to compare it to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, steingar said: I have Johnson bar gear (which I love). But it does take my attention for sufficient time for the aircraft to slow dangerously if misconfigured on takeoff. Yeah, you just push down, it isn't a thing, unless you don't know to do it because you're securing the gear. If you have the trim nose up and firewall the throttle you will know it immediately and completely forget about the gear. At this point you need to become the pilot you know you are deep down and fly the plane. Yes it is alot of pushing down, but everyone should be able to do it. and then get on the trim wheel. It is possible I have had to do this twice. Another reason to do half flaps on landings. Edited November 1, 2018 by Yetti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: I guess I just don't see even the remote possibility of a VBT happening. You're a better man than me, then. I certainly can see it happening to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonal Posted November 1, 2018 Report Share Posted November 1, 2018 Sssooo how does one make the view look normal. I am watching all 360 degrees at once. Might be a stupid IPad thing because I can't get it to support full view either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 5 hours ago, Yetti said: If you have the trim nose up and firewall the throttle you will know it immediately and completely forget about the gear. At this point you need to become the pilot you know you are deep down and fly the plane. Yes it is alot of pushing down, but everyone should be able to do it. and then get on the trim wheel. It is possible I have had to do this twice. Another reason to do half flaps on landings. Gear comes up very promptly once climb is established. Has to, or the forces on the bar get too great. And of course the distraction factor. If you don’t believe me just go do it. Just make certain you have a second pilot in the right seat when you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 2 hours ago, bonal said: Sssooo how does one make the view look normal. I am watching all 360 degrees at once. Might be a stupid IPad thing because I can't get it to support full view either. on windows PC, open in youtube. on iPad, open with youtube app. -dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 3 hours ago, bonal said: Sssooo how does one make the view look normal. I am watching all 360 degrees at once. Might be a stupid IPad thing because I can't get it to support full view either. Dan explained the detail... But to get to that point... click on the video, push the arrow... opt for open in YouTube.., Whatever it takes to get it to open in yt... If you use a PC... picking it up and rotating it around has to have some sensors for that to work... using the mouse may work... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 3 hours ago, exM20K said: on windows PC, open in youtube. on iPad, open with youtube app. -dan 2 hours ago, carusoam said: Dan explained the detail... But to get to that point... click on the video, push the arrow... opt for open in YouTube.., Whatever it takes to get it to open in yt... If you use a PC... picking it up and rotating it around has to have some sensors for that to work... using the mouse may work... Best regards, -a- Yep... I can open it in youtube using a browser (Safari) on my Mac. Then the cursor changes to a hand when over the video and I can use it to move the view around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 6 hours ago, KLRDMD said: You're a better man than me, then. I certainly can see it happening to me. I doubt that I'd like to know/learn. I certainly don't want to do something dangerous. But after a few of them, I just can't see the problems. BTW... we're gonna come take a look at your fly-in community sometime late Dec/early Jan. I doubt I can convince the wife, but there is at least one really nice home there for sale... or was. She surprised me by saying we should go look at the place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 Speaking of convince the wife... I was flying around the kitchen on an iphone6.... Demonstrating the value of the 360° camera as a flight recorder... Its an amazing tool. The non-pilot was able to understand what she was seeing pretty easily... Still not interested in the topic... One day... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 OK, my favorite convince the wife story. You guys may like this: When I started looking for a job I got a visit from Dr. Ryuzo Yanagimachi from the University of Hawaii. It was in his lab that mice were first cloned, and he wanted to hire me to run a cloning center there. My boss told him I could write really quickly, so he thought I could write the grants. Hawaii sounded good to me. Went home and told Mrs. Steingar about it. She said NO. No Hawaii, no way. If I wanted to go I could go myself. She thought she would get island fever. So I told Dr. Yanagimachi I couldn't do it. Got recruited to a large midwestern school. Ever dark, cold winter day I told Mrs. Steingar it was her fault I wasn't in Hawaii! I was pretty miserable. But then a pilot friend started mentoring me, and I realized I had the wherewithal to be a pilot. So I told Mrs. Steingar that I would never mention Hawaii again if she didn't give me a hard time about buying and flying an airplane. She never has, and in case anyone is interested its 25 years last week. 7 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 2, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 1 hour ago, steingar said: OK, my favorite convince the wife story. You guys may like this: When I started looking for a job I got a visit from Dr. Ryuzo Yanagimachi from the University of Hawaii. It was in his lab that mice were first cloned, and he wanted to hire me to run a cloning center there. My boss told him I could write really quickly, so he thought I could write the grants. Hawaii sounded good to me. Went home and told Mrs. Steingar about it. She said NO. No Hawaii, no way. If I wanted to go I could go myself. She thought she would get island fever. So I told Dr. Yanagimachi I couldn't do it. Got recruited to a large midwestern school. Ever dark, cold winter day I told Mrs. Steingar it was her fault I wasn't in Hawaii! I was pretty miserable. But then a pilot friend started mentoring me, and I realized I had the wherewithal to be a pilot. So I told Mrs. Steingar that I would never mention Hawaii again if she didn't give me a hard time about buying and flying an airplane. She never has, and in case anyone is interested its 25 years last week. Love it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted November 2, 2018 Report Share Posted November 2, 2018 8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: we're gonna come take a look at your fly-in community sometime late Dec/early Jan. I doubt I can convince the wife, but there is at least one really nice home there for sale... or was. She surprised me by saying we should go look at the place. Theoretically, our remodel is scheduled to be completed around Thanksgiving. Realistically, we hope to move in by the first of the year since I know they won't finish on time. There are currently three homes plus three lots available for sale at La Cholla Airpark (57AZ). The homes available for sale are 3,788 sf on 7.65 acres, 4,228 sf on 7.48 acres and 5,659 sf on 7.0 acres respectively. We wanted to downsize so the house we bought is 2,272 sf on just over 8 acres. Let me know when you're coming. I will be in town, more or less, (day trips for work) from December 15 through January 10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 3, 2018 Report Share Posted November 3, 2018 On 10/31/2018 at 10:57 PM, McMooney said: full flaps and landing trim aren't that big of a deal in my E, it's not a lot of pressure(not trivial either) to keep the nose down and airspeed up. is it a problem in other mooneys ? “Big deal” is subjective. Mooney’s climb just fine full flaps under most circumstances. I have never come anywhere close to a departure stall in my F model during a touch and go...whether I raise flaps or climb with full flaps. I do touch and gos regularly because I think it sharpens my skill set. I also practice aborted takeoffs, go arounds, power off 180 returns to base and more. Many on this board would see it as cowboy behavior but I have gotten to know my airplane quite well. I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but I don’t think flying an auto pilot cross country every month or so and a flight review every two years is a recipe for currency or stick and rudder competence. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 4, 2018 Report Share Posted November 4, 2018 On 10/31/2018 at 4:09 PM, KLRDMD said: For a personally owned Mooney, not paying Hobbs time, only fuel. What's the benefit of a touch and go over a full stop taxi back and what's the drawback ? It takes an extra 2-3 minutes and a negligible amount of extra fuel to do a full stop taxi back versus a touch and go. Why not take the decrease in risk of a "very bad thing"™ happening ? Every takeoff presents the opportunity of a "very bad thing"™ happening two times: just after rotation and during the landing. I did many touch and goes in my Mooney while working on my Instrument Rating; I did two on my Instrument checkride; I've done them before and after, solo, with CFI / CFII and with passengers. But conditions need to be good, no severe crosswinds, no traffic I haven't spotted and not my home field (3200' is kind of short; my original home field was 3000' with trees at both ends, a definite no TnG!). But 5000' is plenty of room; at most commercial fields I could do two or three on each pass down the runway if Tower would agree . . . Other than obstructions and possible distractions, which exist on every takeoff, the only extras to worry about are reaching out with one finger and raising the flaps on rollout (which I usually do anyway), then dropping my hand and cranking the trim wheel. But I usually land with trim very near the Takeoff mark anyway, unless winds are dead calm or I'm high on final. Can't seem to land when the wind isn't blowing . . . . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KLRDMD Posted November 4, 2018 Report Share Posted November 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Hank said: Every takeoff presents the opportunity of a "very bad thing"™ happening two times: just after rotation and during the landing. Other than obstructions and possible distractions, which exist on every takeoff, the only extras to worry about are reaching out with one finger and raising the flaps on rollout (which I usually do anyway), then dropping my hand and cranking the trim wheel. Exactly. My point is, why add (potentially significant and completely unnecessary) risk for very little benefit ? For me, the risk-benefit ratio does not favor touch and goes in a complex airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 5, 2018 Report Share Posted November 5, 2018 13 hours ago, KLRDMD said: Exactly. My point is, why add (potentially significant and completely unnecessary) risk for very little benefit ? For me, the risk-benefit ratio does not favor touch and goes in a complex airplane. I can respect that you feel that way. I’d like to know more about why? I have over 100 Mooney T&Gs. It seems like a non event. What represents all the additional risk? It seems like a pretty benign undertaking to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 5, 2018 Report Share Posted November 5, 2018 TnG risks that come to mind... 1) Some pilots have average skills and are more prone to mistakes... 2) Distractions lead to GU landing - wrong switch used. - gear position mistakenly left up. - distractions happen more often during multiple trips around the pattern. 3) Speed control, landing long, and running out of runway... 4) resetting T/O configuration in a timely way... 5) not getting up to flying speed before running out of runway..: 6) continuing into the Departure behind the power curve, hoping to climb but getting a stall instead... 7) having speed control issues leads to needing to know TnG procedures... bounce twice, you have now committed to a GA and two TnGs... 8) accidently landing with the wind... can be a really scary TnG experience depending how long it takes to realize the error and how short the runway is... 9) trusting your CFI to check the gear for you... can lead to a GU landing. Never let your guard down... two pilots are on video in the same plane with the gear horn blaring... better to land GU than to stall on departure... The TnG has some unique things but can also shares the oddities of a too short runway. We lost a rented m20J in NJ on a failed TnG... short runway, bad speed control...not enough Mooney experience. Slowed too much on the ground, Stalled on climb out. Much of the risk is dependent on the pilot decision making including the environment in the decisions. TnGs are OK, not against the rules, knowing what makes them dangerous is important. Discuss openly. Video tape often. Let me know if I missed something. PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 5, 2018 Report Share Posted November 5, 2018 10 hours ago, carusoam said: TnG risks that come to mind... 1) Some pilots have average skills and are more prone to mistakes... 2) Distractions lead to GU landing - wrong switch used. - gear position mistakenly left up. - distractions happen more often during multiple trips around the pattern. 3) Speed control, landing long, and running out of runway... 4) resetting T/O configuration in a timely way... 5) not getting up to flying speed before running out of runway..: 6) continuing into the Departure behind the power curve, hoping to climb but getting a stall instead... 7) having speed control issues leads to needing to know TnG procedures... bounce twice, you have now committed to a GA and two TnGs... 8) accidently landing with the wind... can be a really scary TnG experience depending how long it takes to realize the error and how short the runway is... 9) trusting your CFI to check the gear for you... can lead to a GU landing. Never let your guard down... two pilots are on video in the same plane with the gear horn blaring... better to land GU than to stall on departure... The TnG has some unique things but can also shares the oddities of a too short runway. We lost a rented m20J in NJ on a failed TnG... short runway, bad speed control...not enough Mooney experience. Slowed too much on the ground, Stalled on climb out. Much of the risk is dependent on the pilot decision making including the environment in the decisions. TnGs are OK, not against the rules, knowing what makes them dangerous is important. Discuss openly. Video tape often. Let me know if I missed something. PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- I agree with your statements above, but almost every risk you mention is manageable if not completely mitigable. All of the risks above should be considered. Many of them are also the reason why these kinds of operations help breed proficiency. The time to become proficient at any maneuver is under controlled and well considered circumstances. Practice, proficiency and understanding go a long ways toward slaying dragons and dispelling other myths. You smartly left out one of my favorites...the dreaded "flap reduction/departure stall" that gets trotted out every time time a touch and go is mentioned. Given the number of T&Gs I have done I can say with great confidence (with regard to the Mid-bodies) that this is one of the most overstated risks of operations involving T&Gs, go-arounds, aborted landings, etc... The pitch change might be uncomfortable for some especially if poorly accounted for on the controls. Discomfort in and of itself might be a good reason for those folks to avoid that maneuver excepting when an animal on the runway or an incursion or god only knows what might make it a necessity. The good news is that the airplane typically handles it just fine, even in the potentially ham fisted hands of someone who refuses to practice the maneuver. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 5, 2018 Report Share Posted November 5, 2018 Ross, thanks for filling in the additional details. Great reminder for flap reduction air speeds... as in white stepped ASI indicators at the low end of the ASI’s white arc... I would have to see if my ASI has steps or a step at the low end... If it does... be in the solid arc range prior to raising flaps... Even in a C152 the steps are more of a formality. A few knots wide...? All Mooney’s with 180hp or more... will accelerate and climb with full flaps down... better with T/O flaps deployed... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted November 5, 2018 Report Share Posted November 5, 2018 2 hours ago, carusoam said: Ross, thanks for filling in the additional details. Great reminder for flap reduction air speeds... as in white stepped ASI indicators at the low end of the ASI’s white arc... I would have to see if my ASI has steps or a step at the low end... If it does... be in the solid arc range prior to raising flaps... Even in a C152 the steps are more of a formality. A few knots wide...? All Mooney’s with 180hp or more... will accelerate and climb with full flaps down... better with T/O flaps deployed... Best regards, -a- My point was that raising flaps does not present a dangerous departure stall scenario unless the plane is already at much slower speed than would be prudent for climbing. We’re talking a 2-6mph spread from full flaps to zero flaps depending on weight. The common theme I see presented is that a flap reduction from full flaps on climb out represents a departure stall risk. Using my plane as an example, clean stall at max gross is 68mph. Who in their right mind would climb, much less reduce flaps at such a slow speed? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted November 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2018 Yeah I don't see anything on Anthony's list that's seems dangerous or scary to me. And not worrying about T&G's means being able to focus on each individual component. When landing, focus on the landing. In the case of this video, I was trying to land very slow and short. So I was very focused on the landing and didn't even think about a T&G until the landing was finished. So sitting there, just calmly rolling on the 4000 foot runway, I realized that I had about 3300 feet still in front of me. So I thought, why not take off? Now it's time to focus on the take off. I shoved the power in, because it takes time to build speed (double check Blue and Red knobs). Then thought about what else I should be doing... such as set flaps, and set trim. Those two tasks are pretty simple even while keeping the airplane centered on the runway. Now properly configured... we've just about reached lift off speed. Then I went around and did it again, and then a third time. Each time, only committing to the Go after the Touch (landing) was down, secure and completed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 6, 2018 Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 My procedural for TnG is to make a normal landing, raise flaps, and instead of braking I glance at the Trim Indicator and spin the handwheel some while looking out the windshield and staying on centerline. Once that's done, I push all three levers forward and apply right rudder as normal. The takeoff follows quickly, as I don't usually slow below 50 mph while rolling and trimming. Then it's just a normal takeoff . . . . To repeat myself from above, 5000' is more than enough for this. My home field of 3200' is too short for my comfort, but I've seen it done on shorter in a Comanche 250. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 6, 2018 Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 Early on... C152 experience ... I thought a TnG would be really cool... I expected to be in the air sooner than an ordinary T/O would occur... I was fully surprised that everything took longer than expected... The landing occurred pretty much where an ordinary T/O would occur... any delay in flying again was another few hundred feet down the runway... So it wasn’t landing short, holding the nose wheel off, and departing again... That level of skill doesn’t come for a while... ...and doesn’t stay fresh very long either. Add to the challenge... a sense of time... Some people recognize very much, the speed, distance and time used up in the landing phase... If you have a challenge with cognitive overload... The TnG just got trickier. Signs of cog O. L. ...Difficulty with position reporting on the radio... completing the two or three Gumps checks as planned. Floating a thousand feet longer than expected... If you run into these common COL issues... hold off on the TnGs until the other things are smooth as silk... Stumbling on the radio, skipping any of the Gumps steps are signs that the TnG is better for a different day... Fly a couple of times per week and the ordinary COL things probably don’t happen. Fly in the system, often, ordinary COL things don’t happen. learn to recognize cognitive over load and mixed memories, and all the goofy mistakes that can happen will be eliminated... mixed memory... did I put the gear down this time or was it the last lap I still remember...? its fun learning how the brain works, and takes breaks... over time... Ever test your brain skills to make sure everything is up to speed? Doing TnGs would be one way to test... but, if you are tired, hungry, stressed, or sick... your results may be sub par... better to know that before the TnG... Fun brain things... keep it healthy. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted November 6, 2018 Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 I think we will have to agree to disagree. Making multiple airframe and power changes at high energy that close to the ground is in my view inherently risky. To be honest, doing anything with high energy close to the ground is inherently risky. A lot of agricultural pilots will point out they've conducted such operations safely for many years, to which I will point out that lots have died doing it as well. Again, just my 2 cents, and not worth even that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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