carusoam Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 Wayne, Looking at the data using a phone... tough challenge. EGT#2 seems to be doing its own thing...confirm if you are seeing the same thing... This is typical of a dirty fuel injector... If you lean until peak, you will probably exacerbate the issue. If it is really blocked you might see the cylinder stop firing... The CHT oddities might be related to where your ships cht and JPI cht are fighting for the same space... are you familiar? Take a look at Paul’s data collection for what a typical flight usually includes... Focus on that EGT #2 to see where it leads... this can be done on the ground. During a run-up looking for egt to rise evenly... on each magneto... wait at least 15 or more seconds to collect enough data... Is the title of this thread misleading? A bit sensationalist? Because i’m Not seeing a dead engine... There isn’t enough data being collected over time... update your data collection rate... it is possible you are running on one mag, that comes out at the run-up. Data wise the run-up happened so fast, I can’t see it? best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) OK, on the docket for this weekend is to adjust the timing on the jpi to every 2 seconds. No grass fields for me for quite a while. I'm not terribly comfortable with shortish paved strips in my learning curve. No over dramatization to the left mag test. When I went to the left mag it sounded like it was not firing at all. I did not let it die but to my ears if I would have left it on the left mag it would have. I normally idle at about ... idle and it's a normal tach reading 1000ish. Nothing that my transition instructor said anything about. EGT on number 2. That is an interesting issue. I'll have the A&P take a look at that when we are checking on the mag. My biggest fear with sharing the data was that I was doing something terribly wrong in the way I was flying the plane, that would be OBVIOUS to everyone here and I was clueless about. Edited November 9, 2018 by WaynePierce wrong here. too much listening going on 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 Nice plan Wayne! Repeat the run-up in a slow methodical way... Let the engine run on each mag watching the EGTs rise and fall with the mag switch... If the engine dies on one mag... let it happen. It either works properly or doesn’t... There isn’t a kinda good in between sorta worked right so I took off... It is possible that one FI is causing a significant oddity during run-up... Grab enough data to post... You are building strong engine monitoring skills. They take time and effort... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 21 minutes ago, WaynePierce said: OK, on the docket for this weekend is to adjust the timing on the jpi to every 2 seconds. No grass fields for me for quite a while. I'm not terribly comfortable with shortish paved strips in my learning curve. No over dramatization to the left mag test. When I went to the left mag it sounded like it was not firing at all. I did not let it die but to my ears if I would have left it on the left mag it would have. I normally idle at about ... idle and it's a normal tach reading 1000ish. Nothing that my transition instructor said anything about. EGT on number 2. That is an interesting issue. I'll have the A&P take a look at that when we are checking on the mag. My biggest fear with sharing the data was that I was doing something terribly wrong in the way I was flying the plane, that would be OBVIOUS to everyone hear and I was clueless about. <raising my hand> That is me too, but I have found people here on MS are truly interested in helping, and, while you might get some ribbing, the assistance offered is so much more plentiful. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 5 hours ago, WaynePierce said: I normally idle at about ... idle and it's a normal tach reading 1000ish. Nothing that my transition instructor said anything about. Question: do you taxi at 1000 RPM, or IDLE at 1000 RPM? The difference is the position of your throttle, idle is pulled all the way out / back, and should be ~750 RPM. Extra RPM is bad whe trying to land . . . . You go too fast and have trouble bleeding off speed. Is this why you are avoiding shorter fields? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 Interesting point, Hank. From the graph of RPM... There is one datapoint that showed a low rpm... but I was unable to click on it with my fat thumb and small screen... Looks like run-up to runway may have been a short distance away... A narrative to go with the data always helps... especially if it doesn’t follow the usual sequence of start-up, taxi, run-up, T/O... waiting on Wayne’s next set of data to post... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hank said: Question: do you taxi at 1000 RPM, or IDLE at 1000 RPM? The difference is the position of your throttle, idle is pulled all the way out / back, and should be ~750 RPM. Extra RPM is bad whe trying to land . . . . You go too fast and have trouble bleeding off speed. Is this why you are avoiding shorter fields? Ahh, good question. Throttle pulled all the way is about 750 rpm, I taxi at pretty minimum speed .. a brisk walk or slightly more, once moving I'll pull it back to idle just to keep the speed. I am having a problem at this time in controlling air speed but the last couple of landings have been much better. I'll enter pattern speed at 130 ish, gear down, usually add take-off flaps afterward, usually right before I enter base 90, then turning final I'll add the rest of the flaps and speed breaks if needed to get to 80 and over the number bleed speed off to 70 (all knots) this is with my wife and I in the front seats. I'm also usually having difficulty getting down to 70 as soon as most of you do so I've been floating more than probably all of you. It could be that I'm not pulling the throttle to idle as soon as I should. And I'm continuously trimming from the time I put the gear down to the time I'm touching down. I don't mean to say I start trimming and am continuously trimming the entire time, just gear down, flaps down and short final. And the answer to your question is, Yes. Edited November 9, 2018 by WaynePierce learning to spell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 The O hits the pattern... Gear down, flaps T/O, ASI 90kias, trimmed level at TPA... See what I’m pointing out? It also idles at 700rpm... any faster it might not land... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, carusoam said: The O hits the pattern... Gear down, flaps T/O, ASI 90kias, trimmed level at TPA... See what I’m pointing out? Best regards, -a- I don't understand the first line but the rest sounds like I'm entering too fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 The Ovation flys in a very similar fashion to the other Mooneys... the extra weight makes it a challenge to slow down... Same indicated air speeds, except it’s in kts in place of mph... Staying high and fast is typical of primary training... where slowing down is much easier in a dirty plane with 40° of flaps... close in... People discuss approach speeds in terms of stall speed... 1.3 Vso, 1.2 Vso, 1.1 Vso... not 2 Vso. changing speeds, slowing from 130 is going to take extra effort, more time, more trim steps.... compressing everything into a shorter period of time... Of course, the fly like the engine is going to quit, doesn’t apply to most Mooney’s as directly as it does to one with a questionable mag... Got to get these variables worked out! PP thoughts, not a CFI. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, carusoam said: The Ovation flys in a very similar fashion to the other Mooneys... the extra weight makes it a challenge to slow down... Same indicated air speeds, except it’s in kts in place of mph... Staying high and fast is typical of primary training... where slowing down is much easier in a dirty plane with 40° of flaps... close in... People discuss approach speeds in terms of stall speed... 1.3 Vso, 1.2 Vso, 1.1 Vso... not 2 Vso. changing speeds, slowing from 130 is going to take extra effort, more time, more trim steps.... compressing everything into a shorter period of time... Of course, the fly like the engine is going to quit, doesn’t apply to most Mooney’s as directly as it does to one with a questionable mag... Got to get these variables worked out! PP thoughts, not a CFI. Best regards, -a- The "0" now I feel stupid. I've just recently only learned to count to "J"... I've flown a 180 Cherokee for the last 12 years. I've never had to worry about floating, and the sight picture is quite a bit different. I love this plane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffy Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 Go practice slow flight at 80 clean at altitude. Its easy once you get the idea of pulling the power back to where it should be. Practice turns at no more than a 20 degree bank at that speed staying at a set altitude. It also easy once you get comfortable. Then do the same with gear and approach flaps. Then do descents at 500 fpm at the same speed. Get comfortable with the speed and how it feels. You just need more practice that's all. You'll do fine with more practice. To slow down- pull the power off. It works the same way in a Boeing or a Mooney. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 3 hours ago, WaynePierce said: The "0" now I feel stupid. I've just recently only learned to count to "J"... I've flown a 180 Cherokee for the last 12 years. I've never had to worry about floating, and the sight picture is quite a bit different. I love this plane. If it makes you feel any better, I transitioned from a Cherokee 140. Definitely no floating there And an unsolicited suggestion--lose wife. From the plane, I mean, not otherwise. Don't hesitate to swap her for a CFI. You're still getting transitioning, and the last thing you need is the extra pressure and distraction. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, jaylw314 said: If it makes you feel any better, I transitioned from a Cherokee 140. Definitely no floating there And an unsolicited suggestion--lose wife. From the plane, I mean, not otherwise. Don't hesitate to swap her for a CFI. You're still getting transitioning, and the last thing you need is the extra pressure and distraction. I can’t believe I liked this post! I probably need to build a bigger, heated, dog house... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted November 12, 2018 Report Share Posted November 12, 2018 On 11/9/2018 at 8:57 PM, WaynePierce said: I can’t believe I liked this post! I probably need to build a bigger, heated, dog house... To help recover, sign up for the Mooney Safety Foundation Pilot Proficiency Program (PPP) happening Feb. 1-3 in Lakeland, FL and take her with you. She can thaw out and you can get some great training on flying your Mooney. Won't need the heater in the doghouse in Lakeland..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) Update... last weekend I took the advice from many of you and set the JPI 800 to a two second interval, pulled the plane out of the hangar, started it and after it had warmed up did a normal mag check everything was fine and I left it on the separate mags for probably 15 second to get a good reading on the JPI. The second time the engine died on the Left (switch set to "R") and proceeded to restart knowing I had captured the information! It acted more or less normal on the next two tries. Shut it down and pushed it back in to the hangar, ensuring I was on my new tape marks and the vertical stab was lined up with the Green tape in the center of the back of the hangar. Then downloaded the information from the JPI and took it home to find somehow I didn't record everything and didn't have the engine quitting. Probably because I only downloaded the last thing it recorded. When the engine quit it might have started a new recording so I only had from the restart. Anyway fast forward to Tuesday and my A&P and I drove down to the plane in the afternoon, pulled it out and he went through the same thing and it stuttered, didn't die though, but enough to know what I was talking about. He checked the P-leads and all the wires everything checked good, we took the Mag off and unfortunately it all looked good as well. He was going to check the coils and cap's back at his shop. I haven't heard back from him. When he was doing the run up, he tried to move the key around in the switch to see if it would react to it but it didn't. More next time... Edited November 15, 2018 by WaynePierce 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpilot Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, WaynePierce said: The second time the engine died on the Left (switch set to "R") Maybe it's obvious and I'm having a bad day, but what does this mean? When switch is set to "R", isn't it running (or dying) on the right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 Update... last weekend I took the advice from many of you and set the JPI 800 to a two second interval, pulled the plane out of the hangar, started it and after it had warmed up did a normal mag check everything was fine and I left it on the separate mags for probably 15 second to get a good reading on the JPI. The second time the engine died on the Left (switch set to "R") and proceeded to restart knowing I had captured the information! It acted more or less normal on the next two tries. Shut it down and pushed it back in to the hangar, ensuring I was on my new tape marks and the vertical stab was lined up with the Green tape in the center of the back of the hangar. Then downloaded the information from the JPI and took it home to find somehow I didn't record everything and didn't have the engine quitting. Probably because I only downloaded the last thing it recorded. When the engine quit it might have started a new recording so I only had from the restart. Anyway fast forward to Tuesday and my A&P and I drove down to the plane in the afternoon, pulled it out and he went through the same thing and it stuttered, didn't die though, but enough to know what I was talking about. He checked the P-leads and all the wires everything checked good, we took the Mag off and unfortunately it all looked good as well. He was going to check the coils and cap's back at his shop. I haven't heard back from him. When he was doing the run up, he tried to move the key around in the switch to see if it would react to it but it didn't. More next time... If you shut down the master and turn it back on, I think it records a “flight”. At least when I shut down and refuel, it shows a separate flight. You probably recorded it and will need to download “all” to get all of the flights. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, neilpilot said: Maybe it's obvious and I'm having a bad day, but what does this mean? When switch is set to "R", isn't it running (or dying) on the right? I realized this weekend that I may have titled this post backward. I'm pretty sure my Cherokee's switch was labeled in this fashion: Off, L, R, Both. In the Mooney the switch is labeled: Off, R, L, Both, Start (Push). So what I'm saying out loud when I test the mag at run-up is Left Mag check when the key is switched to R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 6 minutes ago, Marauder said: If you shut down the master and turn it back on, I think it records a “flight”. At least when I shut down and refuel, it shows a separate flight. You probably recorded it and will need to download “all” to get all of the flights. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro I think you are probably right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 4 minutes ago, neilpilot said: Maybe it's obvious and I'm having a bad day, but what does this mean? When switch is set to "R", isn't it running (or dying) on the right? Take a look at your ignition switch... they are most often labeled.... off, R, L, both, start.... Confusing putting the switch in the left position, and the right mag being operational... Depending on the structure of your mark I eyeball.... It may be hard to see what the label even says from two feet away... @WaynePierce great pirep! The power of MS is really strong in this one... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 When downloading the JPI, select download everything.... Modern computer technology figures the rest out.... probably takes a minute or two to download a decade / thousands of hours of data... It probably doesn’t bother to over write the same files over and over... Reviewing the history file maybe interesting... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 Just now, carusoam said: When downloading the JPI, select download everything.... Modern computer technology figures the rest out.... probably takes a minute or two to download a decade / thousands of hours of data... It probably doesn’t bother to over write the same files over and over... Reviewing the history file maybe interesting... Best regards, -a- Two weekends ago I did do the "download everything" and it only had information from the time I purchased the plane 2 months ago. I guess it was deleted before I got it. Which is kind of disappointing because I wanted to try and learn from the previous data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaynePierce Posted November 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 This is my current switch... Who knows what the switch in the Cherokee really is labeled. Maybe I've been saying it wrong all these years, but it works for me... (the photo is actually vertical it's showing up as horizontal on the thumbnail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 It is really easy to delete all the old files... ignition switches are kind of of universal... except the push to start... there are two choices, push or twist some more... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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