Cruzjessew Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 Hi I’m a student pilot (37hrs) interested in buying my first plane, I got the chance to fly an M20e and could not believe the speed, climb and value of the aircraft. I know its complex, but am I crazy in thinking that its best to learn in the plane you will be flying than having to constantly transition into new aircraft? I plan to complete my PPL in a Cherokee then use the Mooney to get my IFR certification. My budget for the plane is 30-50k with 5-8k per year for maintenance, is that too low? Any recommendations for a Mooney instructor and Mechanic for a good PPI. I am in the LA area flying out of KVNY. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Cruzjessew said: Hi I’m a student pilot (37hrs) interested in buying my first plane, I got the chance to fly an M20e and could not believe the speed, climb and value of the aircraft. I know its complex, but am I crazy in thinking that its best to learn in the plane you will be flying than having to constantly transition into new aircraft? I plan to complete my PPL in a Cherokee then use the Mooney to get my IFR certification. My budget for the plane is 30-50k with 5-8k per year for maintenance, is that too low? Any recommendations for a Mooney instructor and Mechanic for a good PPI. I am in the LA area flying out of KVNY. You'll get a bunch of opinions. I'd advocate for a lot of flying time before getting your instrument rating, but not everyone agrees. I'd advocate flying different aircraft before your instrument rating, but not everyone agrees. "Complex" training is not complex, it just boils down to: Landing gear operation Constant speed prop operation Staying ahead of an airplane that is 50% faster than anything you've flown before Getting transition training above and beyond that is either required by insurance, or strongly recommended by everyone here. I think everyone here would agree, though, that Mooney's are terrific instrument platforms, and are great to get an instrument rating as long as you are familiar with its operation. Maintenance costs are only half of it. Consider insurance, hangar/tiedown cost, fuel, data subscriptions, the 2020 ADS-B requirement as part of your operational costs over the next several years. Also ask yourself what your "mission" is. That might tell you whether a Mooney fits it. If you're looking for a sight-seeing grass hopper for short trips, or for just flying in the pattern, it might not be the best. I'd say for everything up to J models, cross-country trips between 150-600 miles is a good fit. For PPI's, I liked the guys in Crownair down in San Diego at MYF. They charged about $950 for a Mooney PPI a few years ago. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Cruzjessew said: Hi I’m a student pilot (37hrs) interested in buying my first plane, I got the chance to fly an M20e and could not believe the speed, climb and value of the aircraft. I know its complex, but am I crazy in thinking that its best to learn in the plane you will be flying than having to constantly transition into new aircraft? I plan to complete my PPL in a Cherokee then use the Mooney to get my IFR certification. My budget for the plane is 30-50k with 5-8k per year for maintenance, is that too low? Any recommendations for a Mooney instructor and Mechanic for a good PPI. I am in the LA area flying out of KVNY. I think your plan is a good one. I'm in the camp that doesn't think Mooneys are difficult to fly or land. There are lots of low time pilots who have done this same thing. I logged about 20 hours between my PPL and IFR. I don't see any reason to wait. As a former M20C owner, I think your budget is in line for an M20C. I'd want to raise my purchase budget to $60K to include E's. But your yearly budget should be fine. Of course shit happens. And when it happens in this hobby, it's expensive. So just be prepared. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 4 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said: I think your plan is a good one. I'm in the camp that doesn't think Mooneys are difficult to fly or land. There are lots of low time pilots who have done this same thing. I logged about 20 hours between my PPL and IFR. I don't see any reason to wait. As a former M20C owner, I think your budget is in line for an M20C. I'd want to raise my purchase budget to $60K to include E's. But your yearly budget should be fine. Of course shit happens. And when it happens in this hobby, it's expensive. So just be prepared. The way I think about my 150 hours after my PPL and before my IFR was that all the ass-puckering moments before my IR prepared me for all the ass-puckering moments since getting it 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 I would agree with both @jaylw314 and @gsxrpilot with a couple of comments. Be precise in your flying before you hop into a Mooney. Many of the problems transitioning pilots have come from trying to force the plane onto the runway. Attention to details like weight and speeds are important when trying to land. If you are not managing your speed well in the Cherokee, you will find the Mooney magnifies it. If you have everything on the numbers as they should be, Mooneys are as simple a plane to fly and land as any. You are set up well for buying a plane, it sounds like, and I think defining your mission will help narrow your selection of what plane to buy. While we would all like you to buy a Mooney - 'cause you are absolutely right about them - you want to get a plane that fits your needs. One thing to know about looking for a good Mooney lately is they do not stay on the market very long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 7 minutes ago, Oldguy said: I would agree with both @jaylw314 and @gsxrpilot with a couple of comments. Be precise in your flying before you hop into a Mooney. Many of the problems transitioning pilots have come from trying to force the plane onto the runway. Attention to details like weight and speeds are important when trying to land. If you are not managing your speed well in the Cherokee, you will find the Mooney magnifies it. If you have everything on the numbers as they should be, Mooneys are as simple a plane to fly and land as any. You are set up well for buying a plane, it sounds like, and I think defining your mission will help narrow your selection of what plane to buy. While we would all like you to buy a Mooney - 'cause you are absolutely right about them - you want to get a plane that fits your needs. One thing to know about looking for a good Mooney lately is they do not stay on the market very long. Wierdly, I found short-field landings in a Cherokee were what taught me how to land a Mooney. I was getting psyched up to land at KPFC, which is about as scary an airfield can be for an inexperienced pilot, so I collared my instructor to help. He harped on me over several landings about controlling my airspeed until I could nail 54 knots all the way down AND stay on a steady glideslope. That's when something clicked in my head about flying the plane instead of letting it fly me--there's no "perfect" pitch and power setting, you have to balance it like a tightrope walker. Once I moved to the Mooney, keeping on speed was straightforwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzjessew Posted October 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 @jaylw314 @gsxrpilot @Oldguy One of my fears in jumping into a Mooney is all the prop strike stories I’ve read about, a mistake like that would hurt my wallet and self-esteem beyond repair. I truly appreciate all the tips and will definitely put extra work on my landings with a focus on hitting all the right speeds before the transition. My second fear and this applies to the purchase of any plane is all the horror stories related to maintenance. Although the one @Yetti pointed out takes the prize and makes me want to run for the hills. However my purpose for the plane is to use the plane for trips and vacations to visit family and friends most of those will be about 150 nm though my sister is up in Oregon close to 900nm away. Renting is not feasible due to hour minimums for overnights and inflated cost in my area 180hr for a piper 28 140. The appeal of buying over flying commercial is that I’ve always dreamed of flying and of the freedom owning your own plane seems to offer. Though based on unexpected maintenance it seems the right financial word might be shackles. But I guess the sentence bellow describes my reasons for wantting to take the plunge: “For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.” Leonardo da Vinci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 8 hours ago, Cruzjessew said: Hi I’m a student pilot (37hrs) interested in buying my first plane, I got the chance to fly an M20e and could not believe the speed, climb and value of the aircraft. I know its complex, but am I crazy in thinking that its best to learn in the plane you will be flying than having to constantly transition into new aircraft? I plan to complete my PPL in a Cherokee then use the Mooney to get my IFR certification. My budget for the plane is 30-50k with 5-8k per year for maintenance, is that too low? Any recommendations for a Mooney instructor and Mechanic for a good PPI. I am in the LA area flying out of KVNY. It is very possible for new pilots to transition into a Mooney. I bought mine 5 weeks after my PPL checkride with 62 hours in my logbook. That said, transition training from a Mooney-knowledgeable CFI is important. I would recommend joining MAPA (www.mooneypilots.com) and attending a PPP as soon afterwards as possible. Then take a year learning to fly the plane, how it handles, how to descend, hold desired speed, land consistently well at the right speed, etc. Once you have that down, with good cross country time talking to ATC, go ahead and start working on IFR. The important thing when buying any plane is to get one in good mechanical condition. Make sure whoever does the PPI has not been involved in maintenance / repairs to the plane innquestion recently. Also, radios and GPS are horribly expensive to buy & install, much more than the price difference for a pla e that already has them--so try to find a plane with as much installed as possible. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruzjessew Posted October 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, Hank said: It is very possible for new pilots to transition into a Mooney. I bought mine 5 weeks after my PPL checkride with 62 hours in my logbook. That said, transition training from a Mooney-knowledgeable CFI is important. I would recommend joining MAPA (www.mooneypilots.com) and attending a PPP as soon afterwards as possible. Then take a year learning to fly the plane, how it handles, how to descend, hold desired speed, land consistently well at the right speed, etc. Once you have that down, with good cross country time talking to ATC, go ahead and start working on IFR. The important thing when buying any plane is to get one in good mechanical condition. Make sure whoever does the PPI has not been involved in maintenance / repairs to the plane innquestion recently. Also, radios and GPS are horribly expensive to buy & install, much more than the price difference for a pla e that already has them--so try to find a plane with as much installed as possible. Good luck! Yes I have looked into MAPA they have a PPP about 100 miles north of me in April, I plan to attend if I am a mooney owner by then. A Mooney owner-knowledgeble CFI for the transition is one thing that i dont know how to approach. I have asked a few pilots and no one seems to know one or how to find one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GLJA Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 I just completed my PPL, and have 5 hours transitioning time in my 20F. I trained in a 172, and actually find the Mooney easier to land. Partially because I find (feel) that the controls are heavier, and I had the issue of bubbling in a 172. The heavy tome makes is tougher to yank the plane out of ground effect. Maybe I was just made to fly a Mooney.... it’s a feasible plan, a decent budget, and sounds good on paper. I say this because I am now 3 months into ownership. I’ve had the seats redone (known expense), recovered and fixed the glare shield (couldn’t take the rattiness of it), and then had the fuel servo fail on me. $2500-3000 and a couple more days, I should be back up in the air. The complex stuff (CS Prop and gear) are all part of the mental training. Once you do it 20-30 times, it becomes second nature. I don’t even think about gear and flaps up on TO, or GUMPS on downwind and double checking on final. And that’s only after 5 hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Cruzjessew said: Yes I have looked into MAPA they have a PPP about 100 miles north of me in April, I plan to attend if I am a mooney owner by then. A Mooney owner-knowledgeble CFI for the transition is one thing that i dont know how to approach. I have asked a few pilots and no one seems to know one or how to find one. Check the back of the Mooney Flyer for a list of CFIs by state (www.themooneyflyer.com). Or go all out and hire Don Kaye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 Think of it this way... Yes you can. Do you want to? There are people here that have done one way or the other... learning to fly in your own Mooney... Not as easy to learn as flying in a C172... If you can only fly a couple times per month... the C172 is the way to go... Your own plane? You might be distracted with thoughts of damage while learning. Not very helpful when your mind is busy multitasking... Either way, somebody has done it the way you want to... Ask them their thoughts... they will probably give you them and many more... The search key is your friend... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 12 hours ago, Cruzjessew said: @jaylw314 @gsxrpilot @Oldguy One of my fears in jumping into a Mooney is all the prop strike stories I’ve read about, a mistake like that would hurt my wallet and self-esteem beyond repair. I truly appreciate all the tips and will definitely put extra work on my landings with a focus on hitting all the right speeds before the transition. My second fear and this applies to the purchase of any plane is all the horror stories related to maintenance. Although the one @Yetti pointed out takes the prize and makes me want to run for the hills. However my purpose for the plane is to use the plane for trips and vacations to visit family and friends most of those will be about 150 nm though my sister is up in Oregon close to 900nm away. Renting is not feasible due to hour minimums for overnights and inflated cost in my area 180hr for a piper 28 140. The appeal of buying over flying commercial is that I’ve always dreamed of flying and of the freedom owning your own plane seems to offer. Though based on unexpected maintenance it seems the right financial word might be shackles. But I guess the sentence bellow describes my reasons for wantting to take the plunge: “For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.” Leonardo da Vinci Prop strikes and gear up landings will not hurt your wallet more so than any other accident. It's certainly the most survivable kind of accident you'll ever be in, and probably the most preventable kind. This is why you get insurance. Fear is different for different people--for some it motivates them to be vigilant, for others it paralyzes them. In this business, figure out how to be the first kind of person. In terms of maintenance, there's no beating around the bush--it's terrible. You've got to know that if the plane is a total maintenance loss, that you will not be financially ruined. If not, then rental is certainly better. You might pay more renting, but someone else is taking all the risk. If you want to own a plane, it needs to be worth that risk to you. I figure for my real operating costs, I could rent a 182 at $220/hour for 5 hours EVERY MONTH and still be ahead financially. I keep trying to convince myself it is comparable to commercial in terms of cost, and if you just count fuel, yes. Trips between Oregon and Los Angeles costs me about $450 in fuel for two people, which is pretty good, and the actual time with all the driving and security business is comparable too. Of course, that does not factor in all the other real operating costs, and then the idea of cost-effectiveness goes out the window. Again, it's ok as long as you know you're paying a bunch of extra money to do it the way you want to do it and have fun doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan208 Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 On 10/29/2018 at 1:45 PM, Cruzjessew said: Hi I’m a student pilot (37hrs) interested in buying my first plane, I got the chance to fly an M20e and could not believe the speed, climb and value of the aircraft. I know its complex, but am I crazy in thinking that its best to learn in the plane you will be flying than having to constantly transition into new aircraft? I plan to complete my PPL in a Cherokee then use the Mooney to get my IFR certification. My budget for the plane is 30-50k with 5-8k per year for maintenance, is that too low? Any recommendations for a Mooney instructor and Mechanic for a good PPI. I am in the LA area flying out of KVNY. I am in the same boat . I have been in love with Mooney airplanes for years. I have a Mooney Bravo clock that has been on the wall for a long time . Now I am about ready for my check ride . My new E or F is all that is on my mind . I decided to finish the check ride in the 172 , but I am looking . I did a a cross country with my cfi recently for business travel reasons. It was 220 each leg , I never want to fly that far in a 172 again. My main mission is going to be 350 mile trips over the Rockies , my new commuter plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 On 10/29/2018 at 3:46 PM, jaylw314 said: Getting transition training above and beyond that is as important as getting a good prebuy done on the Mooney, if not more so. Having a great plane that is flown properly is far better than having a great plane that is being abused by not being flown correctly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 Welcome aboard, Dan! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexLev Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 (edited) One of my suggestions would be to have enough cash in the bank to spring for an overhaul at any point during your maintenance (so like at least a 15k reserve) so that if you do need to bite the bullet on an expensive repair early, you're ready for it. Otherwise, 5-8k/year might be ok, but it could also be a little low. i.e. Insurance - 1500-2400 your first year. Hangar? variable, but say 3000-4000/year Subscriptions for GPS,etc: 500/year Annual? Prob at minimum: 2000/year You're already at like 5-8k/year without any flying to go along with it and that's if there are no mechanical issues (which any owner will at least have 1-3K per year of unplanned maintenance, like a failed fuel pump, magneto, GPS switch, etc...). If you're taking out a loan, that's another fixed annual payment which will definitely take you over your 5-8k/year budget. Edited November 15, 2018 by AlexLev 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steingar Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 Get a good instructor and go for it. Guys have learned to fly in all sorts of aircraft. So long as you're certain about your mission. Remember, if you're wrong changing aircraft can get expensive. But in the certificated GA market there isn't more bang for your buck than a Mooney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan208 Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 13 hours ago, carusoam said: Welcome aboard, Dan! Best regards, -a- Thank you Sir . I have been here a long time . I thought I should finally sign up at talk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 In that case... Welcome out to the posting open! About half of our first time posters have been here a few years without chiming in.... They usually have a long standing membership... Find a really cool photo and post it on your avatar. Let us know if you need a hand with that... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan208 Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 hour ago, carusoam said: In that case... Welcome out to the posting open! About half of our first time posters have been here a few years without chiming in.... They usually have a long standing membership... Find a really cool photo and post it on your avatar. Let us know if you need a hand with that... Best regards, -a- There you go , I hope to have cool Mooney photos soon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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