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Ramp Fee Question for Attorneys


cliffy

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12 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

While I have not needed to do so yet, in the future, if I need to park at an unfamiliar airport, I plan to send an email asking about fees.  I can then take the response with me.  If they try to charge me more I can then show them the email.  I'll detail when I'll arrive, when I'll leave, the type of aircraft, and whether or not I'll buy fuel.

I do that regularly. I know some do, some don't, some reasonable, some not. So just as I ask my car guy what a repair will cost, I ask an FBO for its fee structure.

Edited by midlifeflyer
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17 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Why the drama?  Just call ahead and ask about fees. 

 

Usually the person you talk to isnt the person behind the desk on the day of your trip. "Bait and Switch" is very common. Atlantic at Orlando Exec said 50% off for quick turnaround dropoff. We got there and charged us full price. I told them the lady said 50% for turnarounds and they told us "she was mistaken"

What stops them from saying. "err, yeah, that'll be...uh....$200"

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Perhaps familiarity helps: I used Atlantic at KSNA easily a hundred times in a decade.  They always found room for my scruffy little piston among the sleek corporate jets and they treated me like one of the guys who uplift thousands of gallons per visit. Perhaps as I taxied up the gals behind the counter said “damn, here comes 55U again, where can we hide that mustard-colored embarrassment?” But to me the FBO staff were invariably polite & helpful even though they made no money servicing my little eggbeater.   

Sorry to hear that not everyone has had good experiences with major FBOs.   I have few complaints &  I’ve frequently been happy that their facility was there, ready to help 24/7.  

In stark contrast I’ve flown into deserted GA fields where I literally had to climb the fence to get out.  

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On 10/27/2018 at 10:27 AM, Hank said:

Often the big city FBOs publish overnight parking rates and fuel prices, sometimes with a note of "one night free with XX gallons purchased." Then when I stay overnight, there are four additional fees on the bill . . . . Or I drop in for lunch, stay an hour and a half and am asked for the full overnight fee and a handling fee.

This type of treatment makes pilots not go back to eat, and often leads to closure of on-field restaurants due to loss of fly-in business.

Maybe we should all call the businesses we visited, and tell them that the FBO added $25.00 to our lunch bill, so we will not be coming back again. Then the business could pressure the FBO directly (along with face-to-face pilot complaints) and the airport manager. When paying that $20 parking fee and the $5 handling fee for them to do no handling and only provide a walkway from the ramp to the sidewalk, I always comment negatively and when in a bad mood, vigorously, with comments about never coming back.

If only there was a way to spread the word, somewhere to post a true comment that wouldn't get taken down, leaving only the positive ones behind . . . .

If you go to PDK and stop at EPPS, they say if you eat lunch at the field restaurant, then no landing fee.   So I did, and still got charged.  I argued and they said, I needed to eat at the other restaurant....  later I found out that’s because Epps owns the restaurant, and it’s not actually on the field.  It’s next to the field.   Whatever, I got to use the courtesy car anyway.  

Seems pretty easy for an FBO to drive business to a restaurant though.  

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5 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Seems pretty easy for an FBO to drive business to a restaurant though.  

Much mode often, FBO policies towards pilots drive us away from the field and away from the restaurant . . . . Yes, I've been charged $25 ramp fee for stopping to eat. Never went back . . . .

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28 minutes ago, Hank said:

Much mode often, FBO policies towards pilots drive us away from the field and away from the restaurant . . . . Yes, I've been charged $25 ramp fee for stopping to eat. Never went back . . . .

Yeah, I would definitely stop flying to an on field restaurant if I had to pay to land. 

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13 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Perhaps familiarity helps: I used Atlantic at KSNA easily a hundred times in a decade.  They always found room for my scruffy little piston among the sleek corporate jets and they treated me like one of the guys who uplift thousands of gallons per visit. Perhaps as I taxied up the gals behind the counter said “damn, here comes 55U again, where can we hide that mustard-colored embarrassment?” But to me the FBO staff were invariably polite & helpful even though they made no money servicing my little eggbeater.   

Sorry to hear that not everyone has had good experiences with major FBOs.   I have few complaints &  I’ve frequently been happy that their facility was there, ready to help 24/7.  

In stark contrast I’ve flown into deserted GA fields where I literally had to climb the fence to get out.  

A friend and I flew into Yuma AZ about 25 years ago in a 310. It was late at night. We walked into town and got a bite to eat and some coffee. When we got back to the airport everything was closed and locked up. We hopped the fence to get back to the airplane. A security guard saw us hop the fence from some distance. When he got to us He ordered us to get away from the plane while he called the police. We told him it was our plane and showed him we had the door keys. He said we were still guilty of trespassing for hopping the fence. We ignored him as he kept yelling at us. He was still yelling at us as we taxied out.

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42 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

A friend and I flew into Yuma AZ about 25 years ago in a 310. It was late at night. We walked into town and got a bite to eat and some coffee. When we got back to the airport everything was closed and locked up. We hopped the fence to get back to the airplane. A security guard saw us hop the fence from some distance. When he got to us He ordered us to get away from the plane while he called the police. We told him it was our plane and showed him we had the door keys. He said we were still guilty of trespassing for hopping the fence. We ignored him as he kept yelling at us. He was still yelling at us as we taxied out.

sounds like an episode of Airplane Repo. 

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1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

A friend and I flew into Yuma AZ about 25 years ago in a 310. It was late at night. We walked into town and got a bite to eat and some coffee. When we got back to the airport everything was closed and locked up. We hopped the fence to get back to the airplane. A security guard saw us hop the fence from some distance. When he got to us He ordered us to get away from the plane while he called the police. We told him it was our plane and showed him we had the door keys. He said we were still guilty of trespassing for hopping the fence. We ignored him as he kept yelling at us. He was still yelling at us as we taxied out.

A few years ago (2000) we flew a Beechcraft 1900D model into Panama City. Upon arrival around midnight there is the same thing, crickets. Nobody was around. After arriving in our noisy, $3 million aircraft we walked around for quite a little bit And found a door that opened. It led to a little Corridor behind the UsAir ticket counter. When we pulled the door open at the ticket counter and hopped over the belt we were greeted by a security guard who had a Glock .40cal leveled at our temples.  The first thing I said was hey Ace this isn’t the first time I’ve had a gun pointed at me so why don’t you lower that thing and let’s talk for a little bit before you embarrass us all. Or shoot me bit this situation as it stands is untenable.   The second thing I asked was did you hear us land like 10 minutes ago and walk all over the place trying to find a way out of the airport? And the third thing I asked was is it a crime to break out of the airport or only just into the airport? Because we were breaking out of the airport. 

 

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31 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

A few years ago (2000) we flew a Beechcraft 1900D model into Panama City. Upon arrival around midnight there is the same thing, crickets. Nobody was around. After arriving in our noisy, $3 million aircraft we walked around for quite a little bit And found a door that opened. It led to a little Corridor behind the UsAir ticket counter. When we pulled the door open at the ticket counter and hopped over the belt we were greeted by a security guard who had a Glock .40cal leveled at our temples.  The first thing I said was hey Ace this isn’t the first time I’ve had a gun pointed at me so why don’t you lower that thing and let’s talk for a little bit before you embarrass us all. Or shoot me bit this situation as it stands is untenable.   The second thing I asked was did you hear us land like 10 minutes ago and walk all over the place trying to find a way out of the airport? And the third thing I asked was is it a crime to break out of the airport or only just into the airport? Because we were breaking out of the airport. 

 

How much was the Handling Charge from the FBO? I've also arrived with everything closed, parked myself, tied myself down, used my own chocks. Leaving in the morning, I vehemently protested the handling charge, as my plane was still where and as I had left it the night before, with no help and no handling . . . .

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1 hour ago, Piloto said:

I would only tip for this kind of service.

José

1270119997_AVGASGirls.thumb.jpg.092219ffbd888f5c01d4fb8264223490.jpg

Flower Aviation Pueblo CO back in the 80s. You got a big wet tongue kiss too.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/20/sexism-in-aviation-then-and-now/

 

Edited by N201MKTurbo
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As always an interesting discussion.  My home airport CYKF has a landing fee for airplanes above 2500kg(5500lbs) $7.00 CDN per 1000kg.  These fees are published on the airport website.  https://www.waterlooairport.ca/en/business/resources/2018-YKF-Fees_and_Charges.ACCESS-1.pdf

The main FBO has a ramp/ parking fee of $39.00 but can be waived/adjusted with a fuel purchase. The schedule is not on their website, so you have to call to confirm.  If you come to to CYKF you can park at my shop free.

Recently Toronto Buttonville Air added landing fees, again not published on the website, so I’m trying to get info.  They say that they calculate based on individual airplanes.

Toronto City Centre airport has a landing of $4.91 per 1000kg. https://www.portstoronto.com/airport/business-information/for-pilots/landing-fees.aspx

There are 2 FBO’s,  Porter and Stolport.  Porter doesn’t publish fees call first, Stolport does. https://stolport.com/fbo/

Clarence 

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Yeah over the years I have made a number of flights to Talladega, KASN, for the race.  The first time I was there the girl came by told her I wanted to be topped off and she handed me and my credit card with the ticket to sign $100 landing fee on top of the fuel.  NO discount for buying fuel. :o:(:angry:  I did go back several more times knowing what to expect then.   However, the last time I went I got there after dark everyone was gone.  I hitched a ride (from a generous hangar and plane owner) around to the gate for the track to meet up with some friends camping in the infield.  When I returned Sunday after the race I was expecting a note on my propeller about a landing fee but nothing.  So I did my pre-flight started up and blasted out of there no charge. :D

I figured it was visit us 4 times and the 5th time is free.:D:)

 

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I've got to wonder whether any of these "landing fees" are in anyway associated with ownership of the airport. Lawrenceville, Georgia, for example, is county owned. No landing fees. Cornelia, Georgia (abt 30 miles north of Lawrenceville) is county owned and no landing fees. Same with Winder, Georgia, which is about 30 miles east of Lawrenceville.

If any FBO's at those locations charge a fee, I'm not aware of it. I was based at Lawrenceville for 8 or 9 years and while I was there I did not experience any FBO fee. Transients may be treated differently but I don't think so. I don't know who owns the airports previously mentioned in this thread so I can not offer any comment on those.

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On 10/27/2018 at 9:26 AM, Cyril Gibb said:

A closer analogy is when you show up at the airport with your airline ticket and you’re told that you need to pay an unpublished and unposted additional fee before boarding.

An even closer analogy is you show up at the airport with your airliner ticket, get on the airplane for your flight, and are told you have to pay an unpublished and unposted additional fee to get back off.

I always call, and I often get bogus answers. Anymore I try and limit my operations to smaller GA fields.

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11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Flower Aviation Pueblo CO back in the 80s. You got a big wet tongue kiss too.

https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2008/10/20/sexism-in-aviation-then-and-now/

 

Sadly, none of the links from that article are still active. So perhaps sexism in aviation is dead...or at least succumbed to the #metoo movement.

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3 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Yeah over the years I have made a number of flights to Talladega, KASN, for the race.  The first time I was there the girl came by told her I wanted to be topped off and she handed me and my credit card with the ticket to sign $100 landing fee on top of the fuel.  NO discount for buying fuel. :o:(:angry:  I did go back several more times knowing what to expect then.   However, the last time I went I got there after dark everyone was gone.  I hitched a ride (from a generous hangar and plane owner) around to the gate for the track to meet up with some friends camping in the infield.  When I returned Sunday after the race I was expecting a note on my propeller about a landing fee but nothing.  So I did my pre-flight started up and blasted out of there no charge. :D

I figured it was visit us 4 times and the 5th time is free.:D:)

 

Let me know next time you come to the race, and we can put you up at KPLR. Be glad to give you a lift over to the track - a whole 15 minutes away.

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As the OP I find it interesting that no attorney has answered my question with any specificity.

 

Here's another "learn something new every day" posting-

On the other hand, contained in the Airport Funding Grant Assurances is a paragraph that allows airport "contractors" (i.e. FBOs ) the ability to charge for each unit of "services" delivered but not at discriminatory rates -

 Appendix A ► Airport Sponsors Assurances

b. In any agreement, contract, lease, or other arrangement under which a right or privilege at the airport is granted to any person, firm, or corporation to conduct or to engage in any aeronautical activity for furnishing services to the public at the airport, the sponsor will insert and enforce provisions requiring the contractor to: (1) Furnish said services on a reasonable, and not unjustly discriminatory, basis to all users thereof, and (2) Charge reasonable, and not unjustly discriminatory, prices for each unit or service, provided that the contractor may be allowed to make reasonable and nondiscriminatory discounts, rebates, or other similar types of price reductions to volume purchasers.

Like I said, learn something new every day! Do I like it NO but its in the rules.  

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28 minutes ago, cliffy said:

As the OP I find it interesting that no attorney has answered my question with any specificity.

 

Here's another "learn something new every day" posting-

On the other hand, contained in the Airport Funding Grant Assurances is a paragraph that allows airport "contractors" (i.e. FBOs ) the ability to charge for each unit of "services" delivered but not at discriminatory rates -

 Appendix A ► Airport Sponsors Assurances

b. In any agreement, contract, lease, or other arrangement under which a right or privilege at the airport is granted to any person, firm, or corporation to conduct or to engage in any aeronautical activity for furnishing services to the public at the airport, the sponsor will insert and enforce provisions requiring the contractor to: (1) Furnish said services on a reasonable, and not unjustly discriminatory, basis to all users thereof, and (2) Charge reasonable, and not unjustly discriminatory, prices for each unit or service, provided that the contractor may be allowed to make reasonable and nondiscriminatory discounts, rebates, or other similar types of price reductions to volume purchasers.

Like I said, learn something new every day! Do I like it NO but its in the rules.  

So it is up to the lessor and lessee to determine what is reasonable and discriminatory as well as the unit of service.:o

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