Jump to content

Commercial Maneuvers in a 252


gsxrpilot

Recommended Posts

I'd like to find someone here in the Texas area who can teach these to me. Having just passed the Commercial written today, it's time to go fly. I plan to do all of this in my 252 and would like to find someone who has done these maneuvers in an M20K, preferably a 252, before.

I tried this about three years ago and hired a local Master CFI to teach me the maneuvers in my M20C. A couple of hours of instruction later... he'd almost learned to do them himself in my Mooney. I'd like to avoid that this time and find someone who already knows how to do this in a Mooney.  It can't be all that difficult.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul, I did mine this summer in an Ovation but would imagine many of the maneuvers are similar in mid to long bodies.  I used American Flyers at DWH with Mason Ross. He is their chief instructor and he actually did his commercial in a J in Killeen.  He has the speeds worked out for the J and now the R.  All of the maneuvers are mostly at lower altitudes so I am wondering if the turbo makes much of a difference.  I wouldn’t know since I don’t fly turbos.

Russ

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did the Canadian CPL in my K/262 this summer. No chandelles in Canada. It went well. Keep the speed around Va ( 118ish ) and it goes well.

The 180 engine out forced approach is too easy in a Mooney. Instructor got nervous when I held off dropping the gear until 500', but plopped it right on the target.

Steep turns became y friend after doing dozens of them; that was one thing I had some trouble with, mostly with maintaining altitude. I loved the little bump when flying through your own wake when you get them right!

 

iain

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jerry Johnson can teach most anything in a Mooney and I suspect this is old hat to him.... Or his son Mark in the Houston area is a AF fighter pilot and grew up on Moonies. That's who I would contact first.

 

 

Edited by nfonville
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, nfonville said:

Jerry Johnson can teach most anything in a Mooney and I suspect this is old hat to him.... Or his son Mark in the Houston area is a AF fighter pilot and grew up on Moonies. That's who I would contact first.

 

 

Jerry was my PPP instructor when I first bought my Mooney. I hit 100 hrs Total Time enroute to the clinic; I still use much of what he taught me when I fly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Congrats on the test - told you it wasn't bad.   The maneuvers are fun - the funnest checkride I have taken - you should not have any trouble with them.  I learned all the maneuvers in my 252 and nothing was too difficult, however, now that the FAA has lifted the complex requirement for these, I chose to do my check-ride in a C172 only because they are pretty intense on a turbocharged aircraft. The ones that will be easier in the Mooney are Lazy Eights and Eights on Pylons.

The ones that bothered me in the (turbo) Mooney were the Chandelles, Emergency Descents, and Steep Spirals, Power off 180s.  I was always worried about high-power heating up the cylinders and then pulling the power to idle in my turbo Mooney - this is why I chose to do them in the C172, someone else's aircraft.

Having said that, you will probably get all the maneuvers quicker in your Mooney and they will benefit YOU in the future being able to push YOUR aircraft to its full potential.

I am looking for us a dual-fan engine place for us to get the multi add-on!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really recommend doing the rating in the turbo. The full power to idle in the pwr off landings are really hard on it. I know one K owner whose turbo died prematurely after completing the rating. Of course could never prove working on the rating is what caused it.

The other thing is this is a really quick easy rating to get in a school rental to learn the maneuvers. Then you can practice them in the Mooney afterwards. Absolutely, you want to keep proficient in doing pwr-off landings in the Mooney - you never know when you'll need that skill. You just don't want to do dozens of them practicing for the check ride.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chandelles aka "Bank and Yank" per the late William Kershner:

1. Set your HSI to a suitable course.  Heading bug 90°  from course left or right.

2. For constant speed prop leave power set once entry speed setting is determined.  I use 110 knots entry to 70 knots at the end of the maneuver.

3. Establish speed at 110 knots.

4. Smoothly roll into a 30° bank.

5. After bank is established, immediately start pulling back pressure on the yoke at a rate such that at the 90° point the speed has bled off to 90 knots.

6. Begin rollout such that at the 180° point you are level and at a speed of 70 knots.  To make this work perfectly, delay the rollout somewhat, otherwise you may end the rollout short of the 180° point.  I'll usually rollout very slowly, and make the last 30° go a little faster for a more perfect ending to the maneuver.

7. Lower the nose smoothly, get back to 110 knots and do the maneuver again.

8. Do the maneuver such that you are always turning into the wind, otherwise you will find yourself downwind, way out of the practice area.

This is a simple maneuver that improves your judgment in managing airspeed in relation to heading changes.  After mechanically doing the maneuver as described, then it is more easily done using outside references in conjunction with the instruments.

Lazy 8 aka "Yank and Bank" per the late William Kirshner:

This is a  beautiful maneuver when done slowly and smoothly with a maximum bank angle of 30°  Once again I use speeds between 110 knots and 70 knots to make the maneuver easy.

1. Start the maneuver at 110 knots and find a reference point directly off the wing perpendicular to the nose of the airplane.

2. Start a climbing turn towards the reference point such that at the 45° point you have bank angle of 15° and a speed of 90 knots.

3. Continue the turn such that at the 90° point your bank has increased to 30° and your speed has decreased to 70 knots.

4. Relax the back pressure and begin to decrease the bank angle such that at the 135° point your bank angle is 15° and your speed is 90 knots.

5. Continue the rollout with increasing back pressure such that at the 180° point your speed is 110 knots, the wings are level, the reference point is abeam your wing, and your altitude is the same as your entry altitude.

6. This maneuver takes practice, but in a short amount of time you will find a "rhythm" and the maneuver will become easy.

The other Commercial maneuvers are rather easy and fun.  First practice pylons around a point, then advance to 8's on pylon. It's not practical to describe how to do the maneuver here.  It's best to get the Kirshner Advanced Pilot's Book with great diagrams that show the maneuver.

Steep spiral's and the 180° power off landing to a touchdown point no greater than 200 feet from your specified point round out the balance of the new maneuvers required for the Commercial.

It's a fun rating and shouldn't take any more than about 20 hours.  Easily done in the Mooney.

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just let your dpe know that to maintain safety of flight, you need a little time to cool your turbo before pulling power completely and you should be fine.  

Its easier to do pylon 8s faster, rather than slower....   

 

Edited by Browncbr1
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, donkaye said:

It's a fun rating and shouldn't take any more than about 20 hours.  Easily done in the Mooney.

What I really should do is go spend a week in sunny California and get you to teach me how to properly fly a Mooney.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

What I really should do is go spend a week in sunny California and get you to teach me how to properly fly a Mooney.

  Lets do this two ship! 

   I'm in the same position, just starting the flying portion of the CPL,  although my instructor has been in the Mooney (M20K-231) with me since PPL so we get the speeds and throttle setting down pretty quickly, but we are doing a bit of experimenting in the beginning of each new maneuver.  We've been treating the plane as normally aspirated for the most part, nothing above 29in MAP.  We extend the upwind on take-off to allow the engine/turbo to cool on downwind prior to pulling throttle for the power-off 180's.  The spot landings have proved the toughest part so far, mostly within the 200' mandate but I want more consistency so we keep going, plus he won't charge me anything for the instruction so its just fuel.

 

Good Luck Paul, have fun with it!

 

Ron

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, kortopates said:

I don't really recommend doing the rating in the turbo. The full power to idle in the pwr off landings are really hard on it. I know one K owner whose turbo died prematurely after completing the rating. Of course could never prove working on the rating is what caused it.

The other thing is this is a really quick easy rating to get in a school rental to learn the maneuvers. Then you can practice them in the Mooney afterwards. Absolutely, you want to keep proficient in doing pwr-off landings in the Mooney - you never know when you'll need that skill. You just don't want to do dozens of them practicing for the check ride.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yip, @gsxrpilot I'm just about ready for my comm checkride but I chose to do it in the school's 172.  Just wasn't comfortable abusing my 231 - especially since it's so sensitive on the MAP.  Will practice these afterwards in the Mooney.  Might probably have done it in a 252 though - less worry about overboost on a chandelle etc.  Enjoy!

Edited by pwnel
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, pwnel said:

Might probably have done it in a 252 though - less worry about overboost on a chandelle etc.  Enjoy!

  Over boosting is really no concern if you work into the maneuver with a specific speed each time, 110-120 KIAS at lower altitudes is usually 22-25in MAP and I only increase to a maximum of 29ish inches at most, no chance of overboosting there.  Nothing in the ACS dictates 100% power during any phase of the ride, I believe the only reference to an actual power setting is in the Accelerated Stall section which calls for "At Least" 65% power, which can be negotiated with the DPE prior to performing the maneuver.  Now, I'm not saying that having the ability to just shove the throttle forward like in the C172 wouldn't make it easier but I don't think I'm abusing my 231 any more than I would be while flying formation, maybe even less so (YMMV).

 

  I guess I'm just more comfortable in my own plane than I feel I would be in the school's rentals and I am chasing this rating to make me even more proficient in my own airplane.  But I do understand why folks would go other routes and I don't mean to take anything away from their accomplishments.

 

Ron

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

Now, I'm not saying that having the ability to just shove the throttle forward like in the C172 wouldn't make it easier but I don't think I'm abusing my 231 any more than I would be while flying formation, maybe even less so (YMMV).

 

  I guess I'm just more comfortable in my own plane than I feel I would be in the school's rentals and I am chasing this rating to make me even more proficient in my own airplane.  But I do understand why folks would go other routes and I don't mean to take anything away from their accomplishments.

This is where I am as well. First of all, I have only 2 hours in Censsnas of any kind. I'm sure I could fly one, but I'd hate to spend the hours to learn to fly something to commercial standards that I might never fly again. I also fly quite of bit of formation work in my 252 and it seems to handle it well. SWTA is keeping a very close eye on my turbo to see if that's having any adverse effect.

I've reached out to a couple of the instructors recommended in this thread. So thanks. We'll see how it goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/25/2018 at 6:59 AM, pwnel said:

Yip, @gsxrpilot I'm just about ready for my comm checkride but I chose to do it in the school's 172.  Just wasn't comfortable abusing my 231 - especially since it's so sensitive on the MAP.  Will practice these afterwards in the Mooney.  Might probably have done it in a 252 though - less worry about overboost on a chandelle etc.  Enjoy!

There's no overboost on the Chandelle if you keep your power constant throughout the maneuver.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, donkaye said:

There's no overboots on the Chandelle if you keep your power constant throughout the maneuver.

Don, 

 

  You've been at this for an hour or 10,000 more than I have, and I am definitely not arguing with you, but the ACS does reference the application of power during the maneuver.  My instructor and I initially worked the maneuver like you suggested but after reading the ACS we changed it to include some power application, again, only up to 29ish" from 23" or so.

 

  From the ACS for Chandelles:  "Simultaneously apply power and pitch to maintain a smooth, coordinated climbing turn, in either direction, to the 90° point, with a constant bank and continuously decreasing airspeed."

  "Begin a coordinated constant rate rollout from the 90° point to the 180° point maintaining power and a constant pitch attitude."

 

If this is negotiable with the DPE I'd be game going with the steady power and controlled climb to airspeed loss as you suggest.

 

Ron

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

Don, 

 

  You've been at this for an hour or 10,000 more than I have, and I am definitely not arguing with you, but the ACS does reference the application of power during the maneuver.  My instructor and I initially worked the maneuver like you suggested but after reading the ACS we changed it to include some power application, again, only up to 29ish" from 23" or so.

 

  From the ACS for Chandelles:  "Simultaneously apply power and pitch to maintain a smooth, coordinated climbing turn, in either direction, to the 90° point, with a constant bank and continuously decreasing airspeed."

  "Begin a coordinated constant rate rollout from the 90° point to the 180° point maintaining power and a constant pitch attitude."

 

If this is negotiable with the DPE I'd be game going with the steady power and controlled climb to airspeed loss as you suggest.

 

Ron

See the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook FAA-H-8083-3B Page 9-6:

In airplanes with a fixed-pitch propeller, the throttle should be set so as to not exceed rotations per minute (rpm) limitations; in airplanes with constant-speed propellers, power may be set at the normal cruise or climb setting as appropriate. [Figure 9-3B]

When I meet with the DPE, I explain how the student will do the Chandelle regarding power setting.  Never had an issue with them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/24/2018 at 6:15 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'd like to find someone here in the Texas area who can teach these to me. Having just passed the Commercial written today, it's time to go fly. I plan to do all of this in my 252 and would like to find someone who has done these maneuvers in an M20K, preferably a 252, before.

I tried this about three years ago and hired a local Master CFI to teach me the maneuvers in my M20C. A couple of hours of instruction later... he'd almost learned to do them himself in my Mooney. I'd like to avoid that this time and find someone who already knows how to do this in a Mooney.  It can't be all that difficult.

 

@Parker_Woodruff

maybe Parker?

just thinking out loud?

df

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/24/2018 at 6:15 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'd like to find someone here in the Texas area who can teach these to me. Having just passed the Commercial written today, it's time to go fly. I plan to do all of this in my 252 and would like to find someone who has done these maneuvers in an M20K, preferably a 252, before.

I tried this about three years ago and hired a local Master CFI to teach me the maneuvers in my M20C. A couple of hours of instruction later... he'd almost learned to do them himself in my Mooney. I'd like to avoid that this time and find someone who already knows how to do this in a Mooney.  It can't be all that difficult.

 

 Congrats on passing the written. I passed that in 2009... then forgot to actually do my check ride so now it is worthless. (I scored really high on it for once)!

Call All American they might be able to point you in the correct direction.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.