Jump to content

Argument between Aspen PFD PRO and KAP 150 in IMC


Oldguy

Recommended Posts

I always try not to be too wordy, but this one might be long.

Last Wednesday I was on an IFR flight from KISM back to KPLR. I was at 8,000’ in a layer about 4,000’ thick. I had just loaded the RNAV 3 approach and was beginning my descent to the IAF when things went pear shaped. I noticed my 430 was showing a rapid left deviation from course, and when I turned to look at the Aspen to see what it showed, the "AP/AHRS Failure" light lit up. The autopilot disconnect sounded, and I took the yoke. The Aspen did not show a big red “X” anywhere on it, but once there is a failure in an electronic group of instruments, I no longer trust any of them. I saw I was in a steep descending left turn, and I was able to use my Sandia Quattro (thank you @Alan Fox) to get level and back on course after a couple of adjustments. I continued the approach and landed – not my best touchdown – and put the plane in the avionics shop. Since then, the Aspen, EA100, and KAP 150 have all tested out completely fine, of course. As a result, the Aspen and EA100 are being pulled and sent to Aspen for further testing as I will not fly them again until someone identifies and corrects the problem I encountered.

Lessons learned:

  1. We learn to fly partial panel, and we also practice unusual attitude recovery, but if you do not practice them happening one after the other, it can be a bit disconcerting and take more time than you want to get everything back on track. I was fortunate to have altitude I did not need to use, but doing this closer to the ground may not have had the same outcome.
  2. Both of my iPads were up and running ForeFlight – mini with synthetic vision and Pro with the approach plate – but the mini was not in my direct line of sight and not in the best location to shoot the approach relying just on it. It will end up moving to different location in the very near future.
  3. The Sandia Quattro 340 with IVSI is amazing, but without heading information included on it, I may have to consider whether it is a long term part of the panel or not.
  4. Use the “E” word. I declared an emergency and ATC was nothing but helpful. They did offer me a direct heading to the airport at one point, but being familiar with the airport and surrounding area, I knew I would be coming in over the hills to the east of the runway and ceilings were reported at 800’. Fortunately, I broke out at about 1,300’. In the days since, the FSDO and I have been on the phone a couple of times, and their main concern is what the resolution to the problem with the avionics will be.

The biggest bummer at this time is having to take Southwest to Houston this week for a trip I have planned to see my family in Texas. But until this Aspen problem is worked out, I guess I will be racking up frequent rider miles.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

I always try not to be too wordy, but this one might be long.

Last Wednesday I was on an IFR flight from KISM back to KPLR. I was at 8,000’ in a layer about 4,000’ thick. I had just loaded the RNAV 3 approach and was beginning my descent to the IAF when things went pear shaped. I noticed my 430 was showing a rapid left deviation from course, and when I turned to look at the Aspen to see what it showed, the "AP/AHRS Failure" light lit up. The autopilot disconnect sounded, and I took the yoke. The Aspen did not show a big red “X” anywhere on it, but once there is a failure in an electronic group of instruments, I no longer trust any of them. I saw I was in a steep descending left turn, and I was able to use my Sandia Quattro (thank you @Alan Fox) to get level and back on course after a couple of adjustments. I continued the approach and landed – not my best touchdown – and put the plane in the avionics shop. Since then, the Aspen, EA100, and KAP 150 have all tested out completely fine, of course. As a result, the Aspen and EA100 are being pulled and sent to Aspen for further testing as I will not fly them again until someone identifies and corrects the problem I encountered.

Lessons learned:

  1. We learn to fly partial panel, and we also practice unusual attitude recovery, but if you do not practice them happening one after the other, it can be a bit disconcerting and take more time than you want to get everything back on track. I was fortunate to have altitude I did not need to use, but doing this closer to the ground may not have had the same outcome.
  2. Both of my iPads were up and running ForeFlight – mini with synthetic vision and Pro with the approach plate – but the mini was not in my direct line of sight and not in the best location to shoot the approach relying just on it. It will end up moving to different location in the very near future.
  3. The Sandia Quattro 340 with IVSI is amazing, but without heading information included on it, I may have to consider whether it is a long term part of the panel or not.
  4. Use the “E” word. I declared an emergency and ATC was nothing but helpful. They did offer me a direct heading to the airport at one point, but being familiar with the airport and surrounding area, I knew I would be coming in over the hills to the east of the runway and ceilings were reported at 800’. Fortunately, I broke out at about 1,300’. In the days since, the FSDO and I have been on the phone a couple of times, and their main concern is what the resolution to the problem with the avionics will be.

The biggest bummer at this time is having to take Southwest to Houston this week for a trip I have planned to see my family in Texas. But until this Aspen problem is worked out, I guess I will be racking up frequent rider miles.

This is why I will keep my Midcontinent Lifesaver Electric Attitude Gyro even if I ever upgrade my Aspens to the MAX which doesn't require it. If the EA100 goes, which isn't likely, you would lose both the PFD and MFD attitude, the same way you would lose attitude on the Garmin G500 if you lose the electronic attitude version of the GAD43..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Oldguy said:

I always try not to be too wordy, but this one might be long.

Last Wednesday I was on an IFR flight from KISM back to KPLR. I was at 8,000’ in a layer about 4,000’ thick. I had just loaded the RNAV 3 approach and was beginning my descent to the IAF when things went pear shaped. I noticed my 430 was showing a rapid left deviation from course, and when I turned to look at the Aspen to see what it showed, the "AP/AHRS Failure" light lit up. The autopilot disconnect sounded, and I took the yoke. The Aspen did not show a big red “X” anywhere on it, but once there is a failure in an electronic group of instruments, I no longer trust any of them. I saw I was in a steep descending left turn, and I was able to use my Sandia Quattro (thank you @Alan Fox) to get level and back on course after a couple of adjustments. I continued the approach and landed – not my best touchdown – and put the plane in the avionics shop. Since then, the Aspen, EA100, and KAP 150 have all tested out completely fine, of course. As a result, the Aspen and EA100 are being pulled and sent to Aspen for further testing as I will not fly them again until someone identifies and corrects the problem I encountered.

Lessons learned:

  1. We learn to fly partial panel, and we also practice unusual attitude recovery, but if you do not practice them happening one after the other, it can be a bit disconcerting and take more time than you want to get everything back on track. I was fortunate to have altitude I did not need to use, but doing this closer to the ground may not have had the same outcome.
  2. Both of my iPads were up and running ForeFlight – mini with synthetic vision and Pro with the approach plate – but the mini was not in my direct line of sight and not in the best location to shoot the approach relying just on it. It will end up moving to different location in the very near future.
  3. The Sandia Quattro 340 with IVSI is amazing, but without heading information included on it, I may have to consider whether it is a long term part of the panel or not.
  4. Use the “E” word. I declared an emergency and ATC was nothing but helpful. They did offer me a direct heading to the airport at one point, but being familiar with the airport and surrounding area, I knew I would be coming in over the hills to the east of the runway and ceilings were reported at 800’. Fortunately, I broke out at about 1,300’. In the days since, the FSDO and I have been on the phone a couple of times, and their main concern is what the resolution to the problem with the avionics will be.

The biggest bummer at this time is having to take Southwest to Houston this week for a trip I have planned to see my family in Texas. But until this Aspen problem is worked out, I guess I will be racking up frequent rider miles.

Let us know what you find out. I know a few owners who have had issues with the EA-100. I suspect the unit is wired like my ACU that has a separate breaker. I wonder what would have happened if you pulled the breaker for the EA-100. Sounds like you did a good job of handling the failure. After installing my hardware, I spent a fair amount of time to understand the failure modes of the glass and the GTN. There is so many more failure modes than their steam counterparts. 

Does the Quattro unit have the ability to set the heading manually and/or with a magnetometer? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It sounded like a hairy situation, and I wouldn't press anybody under those circumstances to take a second away from the panel, but in the past when I've had equipment failures I've always been able to get a quick photo of the failure. This served two reasons, the first is to provide evidence in the event a deviation is reported, and second, for you to show the manufacturer proof of the failure. Our GTN would occasionally crash, and even though I was IMC during one of them, I was able to get a quick shot of the screen for Garmin, which they appreciated at the time.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

Let us know what you find out. I know a few owners who have had issues with the EA-100. I suspect the unit is wired like my ACU that has a separate breaker. I wonder what would have happened if you pulled the breaker for the EA-100. Sounds like you did a good job of handling the failure. After installing my hardware, I spent a fair amount of time to understand the failure modes of the glass and the GTN. There is so many more failure modes than their steam counterparts. 

Does the Quattro unit have the ability to set the heading manually and/or with a magnetometer? 

Unfortunately, the Quattro has no heading capabilities, and that is the reason for my considering whether or not to keep it in my panel.

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

It sounded like a hairy situation, and I wouldn't press anybody under those circumstances to take a second away from the panel, but in the past when I've had equipment failures I've always been able to get a quick photo of the failure. This served two reasons, the first is to provide evidence in the event a deviation is reported, and second, for you to show the manufacturer proof of the failure. Our GTN would occasionally crash, and even though I was IMC during one of them, I was able to get a quick shot of the screen for Garmin, which they appreciated at the time.

 

 

I was just getting ready to take a pic of the 430 when it all happened. I took this one and tossed the iPhone on the passenger floor.AP-AHRS Failure (2).jpg

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

Did the Aspen and Sandia still agree with each other?

This is a good reason to have the EA100 connected to the mfd display. Also IMO is a benefit to have the g5/gfc500 separate from the txi. 

Attitude-wise, I was ignoring the Aspen, so they may have been, but I was only looking at the Sandia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Oldguy said:
Unfortunately, the Quattro has no heading capabilities, and that is the reason for my considering whether or not to keep it in my panel.

I was just getting ready to take a pic of the 430 when it all happened. I took this one and tossed the iPhone on the passenger floor.

Attitude-wise, I was ignoring the Aspen, so they may have been, but I was only looking at the Sandia.

1348538146_AP-AHRSFailure(2).thumb.jpg.bbe5d2e648e3ba72cdc706e1fe2eb1b2.jpg

I forgot about that light. Brett N had an issue with the EA-100 and that light indicated the EA-100 was the issue. The EA-100 is the interface to your King autopilot, I still think it is the source of the issue.

It is too bad about the Sandia not having heading information. When I removed the rest of my steam gauges, I was given a choice between the Sandia and L-3 units. I went with the L-3 because it offered a Nav interface capability. Didn't even think to look at the heading input. The L-3 has one.

 

f2cab15f99200c4c6162657c010e2bca.jpg

Edited by Marauder
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had an autopilot problem this year. It would do an uncommanded right turn. Sine the flight director display on the aspen did not show the turn I was pretty sure it was the servo. And it was the servo. The motor had come loose inside. Mid Continent was able to repair my servo for $600. Testing the AP on the ground I could hear the servo not sounding good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Failures and redundancy.  Some people say the Skyview is bad because it is all combined and if it fails then you are sunk.   This incident shows the problem with distributed systems.  There are three things that could be the problem, but you were still sunk as far as autopilot.   The separate redundancy is what was relied on to continue the flight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oldguy

Unfortunately, the Quattro has no heading capabilities, and that is the reason for my considering whether or not to keep it in my panel.

 

PAI700.gif

In cases like this the trusty old fashion compass is more reliable.

I got the vertical compass and love it.

José

 

Edited by Piloto
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.