What’s your short field landing procedure?

[3914N]

I just took a BFR with a CFI friend of mine, who has very little Mooney experience. 

He asked me to perform a short-field landing. No problem. I set up for the runway, keeping my speed a little slower than normal. Over the numbers I cut power a little early to minimize the amount of time in ground effect. Despite this, I still end up holding it off for a bit. Stall horn bleeps, mains touch gently but stick, and I apply max braking. 

CFI friend politely but firmly criticizes me for holding the airplane off, encouraging me to get the wheels on the ground sooner than I would normally do since it’s a short field landing. Don’t worry about landing a little harder than normal, he says  

Embarrassingly, this is the first time it ever occurred to me that this typical short field peocedure is at odds with the Mooney pilot mantra of never, ever, ever touch down with excess speed.

I must confess I’m not sure how to improve my short field technique without going against this mantra, besides doing my best to cross the numbers at the slowest possible safe speed.

So mooneyspace, what’s your typical short field procedure?

[Jeff_S]

Mooneys will do short field. Just do a YouTube search for any of @piperpainter‘s videos. But not all Mooneys are created equal, and most folks will admit that a short-body Mooney is best for this.

The problem is that you don’t want to plant a Mooney on the deck like you would a plane with oleo strut landing gear. Our shock discs don’t absorb energy like the oleo struts, so you can get a bounce, extra wear and tear on your fuel tank sealant, and in a worst case scenario the dreaded PIO and potential prop strike.

My last demonstration of short field technique passed muster with a well-known Mooney CFI so it must be acceptable. The trick is to get somewhat behind the power curve on short final. Then add enough power to stay right on the airspeed number without the stall horn blaring. As you near the ground you may need to juggle this and add a quick power boost to smooth out the landing. But you should be able to land on your spot or close enough for testing tolerances.

The usual caveat: not a CFI and I would defer to real instructors to rebut or correct my technique!

[Robert Sailor]

Now I'll admit to not flying a Mooney for close to 35 years but I did my share of everything from beach landings on hard sand to normal grass strips. It's best to avoid rough strips as you are not blessed with lots of prop clearance.

i used to plan on around 70mph over the fence and I'd flare low and hit the flap switch which would immediately set it down smoothly. I'm sure there are other techniques but this always worked for me. Just don't flare high as a second after hitting the flaps the aircraft will be on its way down.

[Skates97]

9 minutes ago, Jeff_S said:

Mooneys will do short field. Just do a YouTube search for any of @piperpainter‘s videos. But not all Mooneys are created equal, and most folks will admit that a short-body Mooney is best for this.

The problem is that you don’t want to plant a Mooney on the deck like you would a plane with oleo strut landing gear. Our shock discs don’t absorb energy like the oleo struts, so you can get a bounce, extra wear and tear on your fuel tank sealant, and in a worst case scenario the dreaded PIO and potential prop strike.

My last demonstration of short field technique passed muster with a well-known Mooney CFI so it must be acceptable. The trick is to get somewhat behind the power curve on short final. Then add enough power to stay right on the airspeed number without the stall horn blaring. As you near the ground you may need to juggle this and add a quick power boost to smooth out the landing. But you should be able to land on your spot or close enough for testing tolerances.

The usual caveat: not a CFI and I would defer to real instructors to rebut or correct my technique!

I just had my flight review Saturday (currently writing up the experience). My CFI (85 yo and flying since he was 12) had the same advice. He is not a fan of coming in low and dragging it in for a normal landing, and if his students do that he will reach over and pull the power momentarily which gets their attention. But, for a short field landing he says get slow and drag it in under power so that you can cut it and touch down. He also wants you to hold it off and not plant it on. If you have your speed right and you pull the throttle you will touch down where you want followed with aerodynamic braking and full brakes. We stopped easily under 1000'.

Funny, as we were taxiing back for the next trip around the pattern he said, "Don't be afraid to use your brakes, if they wear out it's about the cheapest damn thing you can replace on a plane."

[Hank]

70 mph is my normal speed over the numbers solo. Short field should be 1.2 Vs, or 63 mph solo (both speeds with Takeoff flaps). 

My flight review earlier this year finished up with a No Flap landing at my 3200' home field, so instead of ~72mph I was more like 90 mph. Took the turnoff at the end with only light braking, not feeling the need for hard braking to make the exit before the end. (Brake pads are expensive!.) Throttle is generally at idle well before the runway . . . On every landing regardless of available length. 

P.S.--raising flaps in the flare will set the plane down promptly, but it's hardly recommended procedure. Come in at the right speed for your weight in that landing, realizing that your POH / Owners Manual gives stall speeds only at gross weight.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Hank

[N6018Q]

I agree with Hank- I wouldn’t raise my flaps while in the air but if you raise them AS SOON as your wheels touch, it gives you much more braking authority at least in my limited experience

[Ragsf15e]

Honestly, the OP technique sounds fine, although I wasn’t there to see the float and touchdown spot.  In my opinion, shortest possible landing is more about aimpoint control and holding it off to an exact desired touchdown point while actually touching down at slowest possible speed.  I teach my students to land on the first runway stripe, slowest speed.  Approach is basically normal with an aim point short of the runway.  At least that’s what I teach as a CFI/CFII...

now if you want to play the game of 50’ obstacle at the threshold and a short field, backside of the power curve, limited float, etc is probably good, but you probably shouldn’t be landing at this field in the first place!

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

now if you want to play the game of 50’ obstacle at the threshold and a short field, backside of the power curve, limited float, etc is probably good, but you probably shouldn’t be landing at this field in the first place!

Which brings up the question, how many runways actually have a 50' obstacle at the threshold? The airports I have landed at all seem to have nice open areas on approch, or if not they have a displaced threshold. I'm sure there are some with a fence very close to the threshold (but not 50' high). I landed at Skypark in Salt Lake last month and there are roads crossing at each end of the runway so you wouldn't want to come in too low in case there was a big truck going by, but 50' high right at the threshold? Where did that number come from? Why not 40' or 60'? Really, I've always wondered that from the first time I heard it in my flight lessons. 

[Niko182]

72 to 71 knots on final. once past obstacles, get low and flare about 20ft before the runway. The moment I get past the beginning of the runway I get about 5 to 6 inches over the ground and pull the flaps. plants the wheel and gets me on the ground and allows me to use right under 1000ft of total runway. I only use this procedure on really short strips, so strips around 2000ft long. Mooneys can land really short, but it is extremely critical with speed.

[Raptor05121]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

Which brings up the question, how many runways actually have a 50' obstacle at the threshold? The airports I have landed at all seem to have nice open areas on approch, or if not they have a displaced threshold. I'm sure there are some with a fence very close to the threshold (but not 50' high). I landed at Skypark in Salt Lake last month and there are roads crossing at each end of the runway so you wouldn't want to come in too low in case there was a big truck going by, but 50' high right at the threshold? Where did that number come from? Why not 40' or 60'? Really, I've always wondered that from the first time I heard it in my flight lessons. 

My home strip has trees right before the runway. I try to avoid them but when winds are prevailing, its good experience.

I'd say 60% of landings on my plane are grass short/soft field w/ obstacle

[Spurious Moppet]

9 hours ago, Robert Sailor said:

Now I'll admit to not flying a Mooney for close to 35 years but I did my share of everything from beach landings on hard sand to normal grass strips. It's best to avoid rough strips as you are not blessed with lots of prop clearance.

i used to plan on around 70mph over the fence and I'd flare low and hit the flap switch which would immediately set it down smoothly. I'm sure there are other techniques but this always worked for me. Just don't flare high as a second after hitting the flaps the aircraft will be on its way down.

That's what I do in my E. I have a 1700' grass runway downhill one way and with a 20' crossing height the other way. The manual flaps come up at just the right rate to make a smooth transition to the surface and helps take the weight off the nose. I still wouldn't recommend the technique to others. If you raise the flaps more than a foot or two off the ground, good luck with that.

[steingar]

I think it a really bad idea to try and land a Mooney before its done flying.  If the field is that short go elsewhere.

[Bob - S50]

12 hours ago, 3914N said:

I just took a BFR with a CFI friend of mine, who has very little Mooney experience. 

He asked me to perform a short-field landing. No problem. I set up for the runway, keeping my speed a little slower than normal. Over the numbers I cut power a little early to minimize the amount of time in ground effect. Despite this, I still end up holding it off for a bit. Stall horn bleeps, mains touch gently but stick, and I apply max braking. 

CFI friend politely but firmly criticizes me for holding the airplane off, encouraging me to get the wheels on the ground sooner than I would normally do since it’s a short field landing. Don’t worry about landing a little harder than normal, he says  

Embarrassingly, this is the first time it ever occurred to me that this typical short field peocedure is at odds with the Mooney pilot mantra of never, ever, ever touch down with excess speed.

I must confess I’m not sure how to improve my short field technique without going against this mantra, besides doing my best to cross the numbers at the slowest possible safe speed.

So mooneyspace, what’s your typical short field procedure?

A couple comments:

1.  Since the CFI is not familiar with the Mooney, I think I would politely explain that you cannot safely "plant" a Mooney.  That will result in a bounce and could even result in a prop strike if not handled correctly.

2.  I might ask why I'm practicing a short field landing.  The other day one of my partners asked me how I did a short field landing.  My answer was "I don't".  Personally, I don't fly into airports that I don't feel comfortable with.  I have my personal minimums.  Something around 2200' is about as short as I'm comfortable with.  If I'm going someplace shorter than that it must be an emergency.

[Yetti]

Yoakum has a Valaro Gas Station on short final.  The BBQ smell is a distraction. Not sure if it is in the 50 foot zone, but there are some powerlines that service it.  Not sure why the OP would wait till over the numbers to cut power.

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Bob - S50 said:

A couple comments:

1.  Since the CFI is not familiar with the Mooney, I think I would politely explain that you cannot safely "plant" a Mooney.  That will result in a bounce and could even result in a prop strike if not handled correctly.

2.  I might ask why I'm practicing a short field landing.  The other day one of my partners asked me how I did a short field landing.  My answer was "I don't".  Personally, I don't fly into airports that I don't feel comfortable with.  I have my personal minimums.  Something around 2200' is about as short as I'm comfortable with.  If I'm going someplace shorter than that it must be an emergency.

I think the CFI was not intending on having OP "plant" the plane.  You can certainly touch down gently with the nose up early in the flare rather than at full stall by just pulling back on the yoke slower (not pushing forwards).  That way you can get on the brakes sooner, since they slow you down quicker than aerodynamic braking.  Just like how crosswind technique would be to let the plane touch down at a higher speed than during a normal landing, although the goal there is different (maintaining rudder effectiveness).

[N201MKTurbo]

If you land with excess speed and then get on the brakes, you will almost certainly flat spot the tires.

If you want to land real short, get it slowed below best L/D, pitch up to descend, pitch down just before ground effects and then flair. Do this all power off.

Make sure you are 100% on this maneuver before you do it close to the ground, but you can land in a few hundred feet.  

[Shadrach]

I have done a lot of short field (<2000') work in the mid bodied airframe.  The goal of any true short field procedure should be to arrive at the touchdown point with just enough energy to flare and little more.   You will get all kinds of general advice, some of it will work some of the time... There is really only one way that I know of to make a true short field landing consistently:

1) Relatively steep, power off full flap descent slowing to 1.1Vso on short final.  This more than any other is a pitch for speed, throttle for altitude situation. 

2) Very little to no round out but more a gentle flare begining around 35' AGL becoming aggressive just prior to touchdown.

It's not a comfortable procedure.  It's not a procedure with tremendous margins (though safe enough with practice).  If done at the proper speed, you will run out of elevator travel just as the plane touches down. The last few feet of ground effect will provide additional cushion. 

The above will technique will yield incredibly short landings in the mid body.  I have had my F down and stopped inside the first 800' of runway many times using this procedure.

Practice getting the procedure right on a longer runway without to much focus on TD point. The focus should be on speed control (pitch) and flare.  The wing should be unloaded during the last part of the descent. The flare should use all remaining flying energy.  IT's easy to know you've succeded, because the airplane is fully planted even with the yoke full aft.  

 

I do not like the shallow, high AOA "drag it in just above stall" method. If the engine hiccups, you've almost no energy or altitude  left to work with.  The method I describe is a slow but low AOA descent transitioning to high AOA full stall in th flare.

You need to have an approximate idea of stall speed by weight. Using gross stall numbers when light creates float. carrying power to the threshold should only be needed in a headwind.

I like to loosen the vernier on the throttle for quick and precise throttle inputs (just remember to tighten on take off).

Edited October 27, 2019 by Shadrach

[skydvrboy]

Being that I'm now based at a 2000' strip with power lines on the threshold at the North end, this is an interesting thread to me.  When I first started flying in there, I did the "drag it in" method, which worked well.  However, when coming up on the power lines or the river on the other end, it always made me nervous about the "what if" the engine hiccuped.  I now do the steeper approach, which feels safer and still yields short landings.

As others have said, speed control is the key, but what that exact speed is varies by weight.  I use 75 mph when fully loaded and 70 mph when light, which leaves plenty of safety margin for both stall speed and runway length.  If I misjudged my speed and get caught in a 1' high float, I dump the flaps, which isn't standard procedure, but was taught by my Mooney CFI and works really well.  If I'm sinking too fast, I add power and delay the flare just a bit.  Like Shadrach, I can get my F stopped in the first 800' if I use a little braking.   I normally just let the grass slow me down and have to add power to go all the way to the end since the runway is too narrow to turn around in the middle.

[steingar]

Just about every strip I can think of that even begins to be uncomfortably short (that the supermen of Mooneyspace could land a fully loaded Ovation blindfolded with hands tied behind their backs) has obstructions on either end.  Usually they're honking big trees that forgot to stop growing when they hit fifty feet.  

[1964-M20E]

Simple stop before the end of the runway or before you hit something.

 

I've used a short field technique sometimes to stop before a taxi way to avoid a long taxi to the end of the runway and then back but I have not been to a field with less than 3000 of runway to the best of my knowledge.  I have intentionally landed long on my home grass strip to minimize taxi but that really don't count IMHO.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

1) Relatively steep, power off full flap descent slowing to 1.1Vso on short final.  This more than any other is a pitch for speed, throttle for altitude situation. 

...

Practice getting the procedure right on a longer runway without to much focus on TD point. The focus should be on speed control (pitch) and flare.  The wing should be unloaded during the last part of the descent. The flare should use all remaining flying energy.  IT's easy to know you've succeded, because the airplane is fully planted even with the yoke full aft.  

Wait, I don't get the part about unloading the wing?  When does that happen?  Are you suggesting reducing pitch prior to transitioning to the flare like @N201MKTurbo?

Also, if you're at 1.1Vso, by definition "pitch for speed, throttle for altitude" doesn't work anymore because the descent profile is no longer stable.  Everything you do will require continuous adjustments to BOTH pitch and throttle, right?

[carusoam]

some summary...

1) Short field technique takes preparation. It is not going to just work out...

2) It is energy management.

3) carry enough energy, so when you get to the target, you have a few kias left to flare...

4) Slow flight at altitude, is a way to get power settings and flap settings figured out. Calibrate your eyes and ASI to know how much energy your are carrying at your current weight and OAT... know how much speed you have when the stall horn announces.

5) don’t continue flying with the stall horn on... or you run out of power and warnings at the same time...

6) Most landings, while light, will be at 70 on the ASI on final approach...

This is approx 10 above stall speed...

7) carry the least excess energy and shedding the excess energy is best when planned.

no room to be behind the power curve, or be nose up, in the traffic pattern... this is bad technique because a moments inattention leads to falling....

8) Do your math in advance... Ross has given great mathematical guidance...

9) approaching at 10 over stall doesn’t leave much room when the air moves, or stops moving...

10) The objective is carrying excess energy/AS all the way to touch down.... on short final, bleeding off the excess, while nose down is a skill...

11) What makes the OP’s challenge tougher... Is using an ordinary CFI for this high performance activity... the laminar wing is something to practice with at altitude... before accidentally running out of energy while still above the ground...

12) Nobody likes it when you run out of energy 10’ off the pavement... the inner regions of the wing start losing lift early and your sink rate goes into overdrive...

13) measuring how much excess energy you carried... so you can take half out at a time...   each extra knot allows about an extra 100’ of float... 10 extra knots, you miss touching your target by 1k’.

Allowing the unexpected float is called ballooning... which comes with some of its own challenges...

Controlling the float takes proper sight picture, and ability to scan the ASI or AOAi while flying in the landing attitude...

not allowing the float, is called forcing the landing... on a short field, one bounce and it is go around time... because you just proved to yourself you have more energy than you expected.  Landing safely has become a lot more risky of running out of space...

creeping up on energy management takes a few knots and a few feet at a time...

 

Extra Thanks to the CFIs in this conversation...

For more on energy management and adjusting approach speed properly...

@donkaye has a great piece of knowledge that can be purchased at a low price...

For a great presentation on controlling excess energy... See any landing demonstration by @201er who uses an AOAi to do the math for him...

For proof it can be done... Bryan’s videos do show it all...

Always fly safely... practice at altitude... use a CFI that is familiar with the laminar wing for stalls, slow flight, and performance flight regimes...

It is OK to say no to your CFI and explain why your are unable... you get pretty good at this over time...

As in... I can demonstrate short field technique... but, actually demonstrating it requires starting further back in the traffic pattern than we are now...   

 

PP collection of MS thoughts... I have had my O1 powered O on a 2k’ runway a few times... the T/O run took more than half the runway... with two people on board.

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

If you get behind the power curve in a Mooney you better be ready to land.  You can get in a position that full power won’t get you out of. True short field technique requires a much steeper slower approach which doesn’t feel right to many Mooney pilots. This video is excellent.

 

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Wait, I don't get the part about unloading the wing?  When does that happen?  Are you suggesting reducing pitch prior to transitioning to the flare like @N201MKTurbo?

Also, if you're at 1.1Vso, by definition "pitch for speed, throttle for altitude" doesn't work anymore because the descent profile is no longer stable.  Everything you do will require continuous adjustments to BOTH pitch and throttle, right?

Level flight equals 1g. Using 1G as a ref, unloading the wing means anything less than 1G as in during the descent.  Who said anything about a stable descent profile?  I shoot for 1.2Vso as I level the wings on final. I hold that until short final at which point power is off and pitch is set to slow to 1.1Vso. the aircraft is pitched down slightly to hold  1.1Vso power off until the flare is initiated about 1 wingspan (beginning of ground effect) above the touchdown zone. The Stall horn will sound through the flare and the yoke should end up at full aft or nearly full aft during the descent .  Again it is not a comfortable procedure, for most. 

Mooneys are more challenging to land short because the already slick airframe is low to the ground and very much subject to ground effect.  Any excess energy at arrival is magnified by the additional lift and reduced drag in ground effect. It would be interesting to see how slow the airplane will fly in ground effect. I may try it out just for S&Gs some day.

A bit about power vs pitch.  The only time power need be added to any approach is if there is not sufficient energy to approach and flare.  That does not mean its not a good idea to add power in order to give passengers the smoothest consistent ride possible, that's a good thing. However, that extra energy will need to be contended with on arrival. Most airports have plenty of runway for a pilot to contend with that excess energy.  But we are talking short fields. The goal is to get down and stopped in th shortest distance possible. 2000ft does not leave a lot of margin but getting down below 1800ft there's little room for slop.  These are not strips where I take non flying passengers. 

Edited October 24, 2018 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, kmyfm20s said:

If you get behind the power curve in a Mooney you better be ready to land.  You can get in a position that full power won’t get you out of. True short field technique requires a much steeper slower approach which doesn’t feel right to many Mooney pilots. This video is excellent.

 

Absolutely agree! Power should be used to add energy to an approach as needed. Power should not be what keeps the airplane flying.