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M20F

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2 minutes ago, M20F said:

Currently have 430 want to do 430W upgrade to it, add a GTN 650/GI106B.  Also need ADS-B solution and ability to display on 650 plus a audio panel.  Appreciate feedback/ideas. 

When I installed my GTN 650, I looked at the GI-106 since my old CDIs would not support the GPS input. They are expensive. You didn't say what you already have in the panel (HSI vs. DG, etc.). I would go the route of a G5 or an Aspen and get a true HSI if you don't have one. The GTX-345 is a good solution if you run either ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot to display the traffic on. If you are limited on panel space, you can get the GTX-345R remote unit. You can control the transponder through the 650. A 345 will also show traffic on both the GNS 430 and the GTN. The screens will get a bit cluttered but you can always run one unit in traffic mode and have your Nav stuff on the other one.

I have the PS Engineering 450A unit. The latest unit is the 450B. Solid audio panels and good features.

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I am looking to display weather and traffic on the Garmin if possible for a reasonable amount of money.  If not will go the ForeFlight/Stratux route which is what I have now. 

At some point will move to a G5/Aspen but not ready to make the leap yet. 

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20 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Rather than 2 WAAS GPS you might consider a GTN 750 which has a large enough screen to do justice to all the traffic, weather, charts, and terrain info available. I have a remote GDL88 for ADS-B I/O.  

IMG_20180720_104754102_HDR.jpg

Specifically looking for 2 WAAS sources.  I fly 200-300hrs for work and that includes a lot of IFR.  Not having LPV has been a limiter for me and I like 2 of everything.  Plus the GTN is going to be more than I am looking to spend.  Is the GDL-88 the secret to the ADS-B in?

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I pulled my 430 and navcomm and got $7500 for both then put in a 750/650. It is overkill but It simplified installation, updates, syncing flight plans, potential support issues, depreciation of the 430,  instrument scan, and situational awareness. Installing two 650s might end up being more economical when factoring all sides of the equation including costs of upgrading to waas, installation, updates, etc.  It’s always a conundrum and quite often leads down the road of “while we are at it....$$$$....$$$$.”

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41 minutes ago, M20F said:

Specifically looking for 2 WAAS sources.  I fly 200-300hrs for work and that includes a lot of IFR.  Not having LPV has been a limiter for me and I like 2 of everything.  Plus the GTN is going to be more than I am looking to spend.  Is the GDL-88 the secret to the ADS-B in?

Are you looking to add weight also?  The GDL-88 is a solution, however, you are simply adding weight also.  Though it is minimal, you are adding weight.  THe GDL88 will do In and Out for display purposes and ADS-B Mandate.  However, there are several ways to go about getting ready for the mandate and making a clean panel for ease of use also.  The question is twofold, 1) what type of functionality are you looking? 2) what is your budget?  You could spend the extra money for the GTN750, with a remote audio panel and remote GTX345 all being controlled on the GTN750 for functionality purposes as well as Upgrading to the GNS430W as well.  You will have a cleaner panel, easier to reference to and lighten the load so to speak.  THat is the cadillac option and because you fly so much, would be a great safety feature as well.  

 

Now, there are other panel mount/remote combinations you can do also.  Again, the twofold question still applies.  Let me know if I can help and I hope this will help out also.

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3 hours ago, M20F said:

Specifically looking for 2 WAAS sources.  I fly 200-300hrs for work and that includes a lot of IFR.  Not having LPV has been a limiter for me and I like 2 of everything.  Plus the GTN is going to be more than I am looking to spend.  Is the GDL-88 the secret to the ADS-B in?

I have not flown with the GTN 650, you need to talk to someone who has both. It is my impression that the 750 is much more capable and well worth the difference in cost if you can make the panel space for it. And having had the 750 for 6 years backed up with an old KX 155 NAVCOM I would not spend money on a second WAAS GPS. I do have the Aspen with a backup GPS and battery and a Garmin 696 as well as an IPad. Approach plates on 3 devices. I would think my GTN 750 and KX 155 is cost competitive with a 650/430W combo and I know I get more out of the 750 than you'd get out of the 650/430W combo. I use the #2 COM some for ATIS, or formation flying but I never use the #2 NAV. 

I have had the GDL-88 since it's introduction 6 years ago. There are a lot more choices for doing ADS-B I/O now but my combo has worked flawlessly and with the FS510 in the 750 the weather and traffic appear on the 750, the Aspen and the Ipad. 

@donkayehas both I think. He can comment on the 650 as a  weather/traffic display.

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4 hours ago, M20F said:

Currently have 430 want to do 430W upgrade to it, add a GTN 650/GI106B.  Also need ADS-B solution and ability to display on 650 plus a audio panel.  Appreciate feedback/ideas. 

Trade the Garmin 430 for an Avidyne 440, reuse the same indicator, add a Garmin 345 transponder and PS450B audio panel. Use your iPad with the free IFD100 app to control the 440 and have all of it's data displayed on the iPad. Chase, on this site can do all of that for you for a very attractive price, especially consider the significantly reduced labor on this install.

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To rehash everyone else and to give my 2 pennies...least desirable to most. 

- sell 430 buy used 430w

- sell 430 buy used/new 440

- sell 430 buy 540 and sl30

- keep 430 and add 750

- buy txi and two 750’s

I see no reason to buy a 650. If this was a fresh install I would but in this case you already have the gns/idf install 95% complete. 

Consider keeping the 430 non waas as a backup. Would still give you ILS/direct navigation/and non precision approach capability. 

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  • 4 months later...

Ended up going with:

GTX345R (wouldn’t fit in the stack)

G5 HSI

GTN650

GMA350

The 430 will be pre-wired for everything and so once the install is done will pull that out and upgrade to WAAS and very minimal additional work.  About $30k when all is said and done.

 

 

 

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On 2/19/2019 at 2:42 PM, M20F said:

Ended up going with:

GTX345R (wouldn’t fit in the stack)

G5 HSI

GTN650

GMA350

The 430 will be pre-wired for everything and so once the install is done will pull that out and upgrade to WAAS and very minimal additional work.  About $30k when all is said and done.

 

 

 

Nice!  Did you already have a G5 adi?  Tell me you didn’t do all that and keep a vacuum adi??? The g5 hsi is really a nice backup when connected to a g5 adi for not much extra $$.

or did you have to keep vacuum adi for an autopilot?

also did you flush mount g5?  Mine doesn’t have enough room between gages to mount the flush brackets without a new panel... did they have to cut you a new one?

Edited by Ragsf15e
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2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Nice!  Did you already have a G5 adi?  Tell me you didn’t do all that and keep a vacuum adi??? The g5 hsi is really a nice backup when connected to a g5 adi for not much extra $$.

or did you have to keep vacuum adi for an autopilot?

also did you flush mount g5?  Mine doesn’t have enough room between gages to mount the flush brackets without a new panel... did they have to cut you a new one?

It will be flush mounted and I will keep the vacuum system.  Electric AI, vacuum AI, standby  vacuum, dual WASS, etc. I like redundancy and low $$’s.  I fly a lot of IFR and a lot of hours per year. I have had a lot of things break over those years so my goal is to not only have the in but also have the out. 

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To each their own.  My thought is that the vacuum is the least reliable system on the airplane.  A dual g5 system has its own backup, or an electric adi if you really want something separate.  But you’re the one flying the airplane and spending the $$, so definitely make it what you want!

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9 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

To each their own.  My thought is that the vacuum is the least reliable system on the airplane.  A dual g5 system has its own backup, or an electric adi if you really want something separate.  But you’re the one flying the airplane and spending the $$, so definitely make it what you want!

It is entirely reliable when you have a full electrical failure.  The purpose of two differing systems is redundancy. 

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There are a million ways a vacuum system can go tits up. A break in one of any number of tubes, hoses, connectors, etc.

There's really no such thing as "full" electrical failure. Lose the alternator and a clock starts ticking down to a dead battery, but then each individual component can have it's own battery that will kick in when the ship's battery is finally flat. So then there is additional time while the back up batteries are keeping everything working. Eventually all components in the plane will run out of battery... but in the hours it takes that to happen, we'll be on the ground, in the hangar, at home or the hotel, having beer.

When the vacuum system goes... the instruments reliant on it, immediately roll over and play dead.

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They aren’t building new airplanes with vacuum systems.  Having separate electric ADIs with independent battery backup makes sense if you’re very unlucky and one fails.  

I definitely don’t fault you for keeping the vacuum adi.  It is a completely different (non electric) system, but I’d make the vacuum ADI the backup and have a G5 or similar as primary as its mtbf is much higher.  Also less likely to give you faulty information like a vacuum adi.  G5 either works or red X itself.  Pretty clear in the unlikely event that you need to switch to backup.

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Is the second alternator a choice for the M20F?

In some Mooneys, the vac pump gets swapped for the second Alternator...

 

Mike,

what was the defining reasoning that you went all Garmin?

I thought you were going to select, piece by piece, and then oversee the integration of every thing.... :)

Or just not enough time to do that and fly 300 hrs each year...?

 

Best regards,

-a-

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Is the second alternator a choice for the M20F?
In some Mooneys, the vac pump gets swapped for the second Alternator...
 
Mike,
what was the defining reasoning that you went all Garmin?
I thought you were going to select, piece by piece, and then oversee the integration of every thing.... 
Or just not enough time to do that and fly 300 hrs each year...?
 
Best regards,
-a-


If you pull your vacuum system on an F, you can put a standby alternator on the vacuum pad.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Is the second alternator a choice for the M20F?

In some Mooneys, the vac pump gets swapped for the second Alternator...

 

Mike,

what was the defining reasoning that you went all Garmin?

I thought you were going to select, piece by piece, and then oversee the integration of every thing.... :)

Or just not enough time to do that and fly 300 hrs each year...?

 

Best regards,

-a-

I went with Garmin probably for the same reason everyone used to go King the idea that they will always be around.  We shall see how that works out 20yrs from now.  It obviously didn’t work out great for the King devotees but better than Apollo, Narco, etc  

The plan was really get the transponder and WAAS solution.  The audio panel was just because if you are doing stuff might as well do the things that annoy you (mine has a lot of static and other issues).  I did go with a single G5 versus GI106 because as Maurader points out the $$ difference isn’t much and the benefit is a lot.  

I do intend to pull the 430 out and send it in right after the install.  This made a lot more sense to minimize down time.  

The only difference between a 650 and 750 is screen size and a slightly easier interface solution.   Given an iPad really didn’t see the need for cost and real estate.  At some point I may put in a G500.  

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8 hours ago, carusoam said:

I’d want to go all electric... and have a nice emergency power buss to go with that...   :)

Best regards,

-a-

Exactly, fly enough you will experience all kinds of situations including a complete electrical failure. 

I find two differing systems of redundancy good for a 1960’s electrical system.  I see the merits obviously in the newer set ups but they are built all around the principal of all electric.  That being said I would still prefer vacuum and electric in an Acclaim.  

Look forward to getting a lot more air time this year over last. 

Thanks all for the advice/feedback. 

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9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

There's really no such thing as "full" electrical failure. 

Many more examples out there but several points in the electrical system where things can cause everything to go dark. 

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