Legal question - Runway usage - non-towered airport

[Marauder]

And I'm a student pilot.  Still learning...every day, every flight.
However I found it humorous that you know the mind of the FAA.
Happily, at an uncontrolled airport you may operate as you please.  No one will tell you to do anything you don't want to do.
Carry on.  Be happy.

Hey! I thought they took the training wheels off of your Mooney.


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[Hank]

18 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

And I'm a student pilot.  Still learning...every day, every flight.

However I found it humorous that you know the mind of the FAA.

Happily, at an uncontrolled airport you may operate as you please.  No one will tell you to do anything you don't want to do.

Carry on.  Be happy.

How many tbousand flight now, Mr. Always-A-Student?  

Other than that slightly misleading first statement (hopefully true of all of us), I heartily agree with the rest of your post! I do not, however, know @HXG.

[Marauder]

How many tbousand flight now, Mr. Always-A-Student?  
Other than that slightly misleading first statement (hopefully true of all of us), I heartily agree with the rest of your post! I do not, however, know [mention=16025]HXG[/mention].

I heard they let MooneyMite solo after he reached 20,000 hours.


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[HXG]

3 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

  

Think and do what you want, but “Line up and wait” is a TOWERED  airport operation. Position and hold is ancient terminology. I prefer not to have my back blind while sitting on the runway as an airplane stalls before the exit. I personally don’t agree with using LUAW at nontowered airports. People do it for sure and I certainly don’t complain about it on the radio, but I still don’t consider it good form. I believe the FAA would agree with me. 

[HXG]

I get it. Maybe I’m a little too sensitive.  I didn’t mean to imply that I know the mind of the FAA. That’s impossible. But, I only know that what little has been written by an FAA supported text and based on a few conversations with several DPEs and a few Denver FSDO FAA employees (Nothing set in stone or written). These support my assertion that LUAW, while not strictly prohibited, is not recommended at nontowered airports. Doesn’t mean you can’t do it. I choose and teach not to. There was one particularly onerous DPE in the Denver area who would berate pilots who did this. Fortunately, I don’t think you’ll have to worry about him on any checkride since I don’t believe he is a DPE anymore. 

[Mooneymite]

6 minutes ago, HXG said:

I get it. Maybe I’m a little too sensitive.

Most of Mooneyspace is here for love of Mooneys and fellowship.  We leave posturing and posing to the other aviation boards.

All except little Timmy.  

[Seth]

On 10/16/2018 at 8:47 PM, Yetti said:

The same look when you tell them that you can just jump in the plane and fly where you want without talking to anyone.   After the stunned pause.   I usually say "you don't have to talk to someone when you drive in your car to colorado"

I am based in the SFRA.  I sweat when I’m on the ground and squawk 1200 prior to departure when away from my home base . . .

Edited October 18, 2018 by Seth

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, Marauder said:

Hey, look on the bright side, we’re not talking about LOP vs. ROP, flaps vs. no flaps, Depends vs. Travel Johns vs. José’s piss tube Venturi.

Touch and goes! 

[ArtVandelay]

Most of the thread is focused on line up and wait at non towered airports.

But for airports with no taxiway and entry point is at one end, requiring a long back taxi, what’s the proper etiquette?

If landing traffic takes priority and the pattern is full with trainers doing T&Gs, departing traffic could find it difficult to squeeze in because of the time it takes to back taxi and get into position. Or if making a full stop landing, the time it takes to land, taxi to turnaround and back taxi.  

I think the priority should be given to departing/arriving traffic and pattern traffic should give way but in my experience the opposite seems to be true.

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Most of the thread is focused on line up and wait at non towered airports.

But for airports with no taxiway and entry point is at one end, requiring a long back taxi, what’s the proper etiquette?

If landing traffic takes priority and the pattern is full with trainers doing T&Gs, departing traffic could find it difficult to squeeze in because of the time it takes to back taxi and get into position. Or if making a full stop landing, the time it takes to land, taxi to turnaround and back taxi.  

I think the priority should be given to departing/arriving traffic and pattern traffic should give way but in my experience the opposite seems to be true.

I’ve been to a few of these “non taxiway / back taxi for takeoff” airports but haven’t seen one with lots of traffic doing touch and goes.  I guess I’d give them a circuit while I looked for a break and if none was obvious, I’d get on the radio and tell them I’m back taxi for takeoff.  Hard thing would be ensuring all the traffic heard/acknowledged.  At an airport like that, radios aren’t even required.  People are usually easy to work with if they know what you’re doing.

The one I always think about is W95, okracoke island.  The sand dunes make it hard to see final and the end of the runway from the parking.  I was waiting patiently for a Cirrus to land before my back taxi and it took much longer than I expected.  Finally peeked out farther and realized they had landed, drifted off the runway into the sand, spun 180 and snapped the tail off.  They were ok.  Luckily (for me) they were off the runway too, so after the local fire trucks and people had left, I was able to depart because the aircraft was stuck there for a long while.

 

[PeteMc]

12 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

But for airports with no taxiway and entry point is at one end, requiring a long back taxi, what’s the proper etiquette?

I've been to a few with the Rwy entrance at one end or more often in the middle.  Some VERY busy places like Block Island (KBID) have taxiways that go about 3/4 down the runway and you still have to taxi back.  

What I've found is even if there is a gap in landing traffic, ALWAYS announce the "Back Taxiing" and if someone new comes on Freq, announce it again (they may be trying to sneak in front of the other guy with a Straight In).  If it is really busy, ask!  "Hey #1 Cherokee and #2 Mooney, can you extend a bit so I can Back Taxi and Depart?"  Most will obviously say yes.  You get an A**H****, well not much you can do. 

Oh, also be sure there's a spot to pull out of the way at the end of the Taxiway.  Some small Apts that require the Taxi Back also don't have a place to get out of the way.  So you need to know you can get from the ramp all the way back to the Departure end without blocking anyone or being in the middle of the Rwy because you didn't think of how long it would take you.  And some Runup Pads are on the OTHER SIDE of the Rwy.  So you taxi down and cross the Rwy to get out of the way of the landing traffic to be able to taxi off the Rwy.  I'd always do my Runup on the Ramp.  So if you do have to cross and wait, you're ready to Back Taxi the second the landing traffic passes you.

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by PeteMc