TANKS - Weeping - Patch - Nuance

[joekinnc]

Hey Folks - 

Advice for a noobie here - I KNOW this subject has been covered many times but please hear me out...  Was going to pick up a 67M20F this week and at the last minute the tanks were discovered to be weeping.  The seller is an EXCEPTIONALLY honest man, no funny business here, maybe a late hard landing cracked the seals?  Here is my question - per the seller - the tanks were sealed once before.  It looks like both tanks have a little weep.  So - can I simply "patch" the bad spots or do the tanks need "completely" stripped and resealed?  Can folks share the current, rough cost for this from WeepNoMore or WetWingologists?  Are O&N bladders still and option - cost of those?  So net, net - what would you do?  I do love the plane and very much want to move forward with the purchase.

[gacoon]

Thats a tough one to answer.  How long ago were they resealed and who did it.  Most of the good tank guys guarantee their work for 7 years.  Talk to the owner and see if the guys that did it will fix it.  If they aren,t mainstream tank fixers I would walk or get a big concesion on purchase price, a strip and reseal is $8,000 from a mainstream shop.  I know, just had it done in Wilmar for my J.

Also see logbook entry for reseal job, are there subsequent entries for fixing leaks, in other words is there any pattern since it was fixed.

[bob865]

I talked to wet-wingologist last week about getting my tanks sealed.  They told me if they did them originally after the warranty is over (7 years) they will patch them for $200.  You need to check the books and find out who sealed them and when and go from there.

I've been working on quotes and planning for getting mine done so here is the quick summary of your options:

I talked to one shop that would do a patch for ~$500 plus materials and they wouldn't warranty the work because a leak was an indication of more to come.

A full reseal is going to run you just under $7000, take 2 weeks, and you will have to take it to one of the few reseal guys.  Most offer a 7 year warranty with the reseal.

Bladders will run you about about $6500+- for the bladders themselves, plus about 40 hrs of install labor.

[Mooneymite]

Where are the weeps?  Top of the wing?  Elsewhere?

Unfortunately, weeps never get better, they only get worse.

I would not close the deal/take delivery until an amicable solution is reached.  Leaks can be very expensive.

[moontownMooney]

What condition were the tanks advertised as being? What is the evidence that they are leaking/weeping? Who determined they were weeping and who notified you? Note that some amount of weeping is acceptable and may not get appreciably worse over some nominal amount of time. Other "weeping" is an airworthiness issue and grounds the airplane, per the maintenance manual. Some leaks/weeps aren't caused by the tank sealant, but by the fuel level sender seals, strainer seals, or other fuel line pickup seals. If there is any smell of fuel in the cabin, or any blue stains under the carpet, you will absolutely want to get it fixed. Few things are as depressing as having a new-to-you plane you love and being forced to monitor and deal with a fuel leak on it. Also, try to take the emotion out of the deal. The plane is just a machine and the seller is just a party in a financial transaction. Too many good people get duped by sellers they honestly believe are honest people. If the plane needs a complete reseal, you shouldn't be expecting a consolation on price equal to the cost of sealing. A plane with a fresh reseal from one of the few reputable dealers is worth more than a plane with old but non-leaking sealant. I'd ask for $4k price consolation if complete reseal is necessary. I've only bought/owned one plane and only owned it for a little over a year, but I say all this from experience. If you'd like to chat, you can PM me.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[BRBENNETT]

I paid $7k back in 2010 to WeepNoMore.  Paul Beck is the owner and really knows his stuff.  Well worth it!  Subsequently I had a leak and they took care of it.  Great people and they know the Mooney aircraft very well.  http://www.weepnomorellc.com. I would definitely work something out with your seller to negotiate on the price.  

 

 

[Browncbr1]

If they are weeping at an inspection plate, it is fairly easy.   If on rivets and/or skin seams, then it’s a little bigger job.   Usually, patching is a good solution rather than stripping and resealing the entire tank.   I’ve paid A&P a few hundred before to patch.   If you have a mooney, this will sure come up sometime

[rbridges]

My tanks were leaking on the passenger side.  gas smell in the cockpit.  I called Cole aviation.  At the time, it was $1k to patch a leak, but he said there was no guarantee.  I figured the original sealant was a million years old, so more leaks were in the future.  I went ahead and had bladders installed since it was the closest place with a predictable option.

[Bob_Belville]

16 hours ago, joekinnc said:

Hey Folks - 

Advice for a noobie here - I KNOW this subject has been covered many times but please hear me out...  Was going to pick up a 67M20F this week and at the last minute the tanks were discovered to be weeping.  The seller is an EXCEPTIONALLY honest man, no funny business here, maybe a late hard landing cracked the seals?  Here is my question - per the seller - the tanks were sealed once before.  It looks like both tanks have a little weep.  So - can I simply "patch" the bad spots or do the tanks need "completely" stripped and resealed?  Can folks share the current, rough cost for this from WeepNoMore or WetWingologists?  Are O&N bladders still and option - cost of those?  So net, net - what would you do?  I do love the plane and very much want to move forward with the purchase.

Joe K in NC? Where are you? Where is the plane?

@AGL Aviationis based at KMRN (Morganton NC) and Lynn Mace can inspect and advise on whether a full reseal is indicated or if a relatively inexpensive repair can be done. He does the latter but would defer a full seal to Weep No More or similar.

O&N Bladders are now available through http://www.griggsaircraft.com/fabrication/mooney_bladders. "Ruthie" can give you current pricing, great folks, -- they will install at their place (Tunkhannock PA) or ship to their dealer AGL who has experience installing their kits here in NC.

Bladders will cost more than resealing and cost 30-35 pounds of UL but IMNSHO are a permanent solution. Several MSers, including me, have had O&N bladders for over 20 years. I added the 10 gallons add on kit to mine last year and noted that the 20 year old cells that we connected the new ones to appear to be as good as new.  

[Andy95W]

Patching vs resealing is all about the age of the sealant. 

Less than 5 years- definitely patch. More than 15- definitely reseal. In between?  Tough call. 

[joekinnc]

MANY thanks to all - that was, is my question - and Thanks Andy95W... exactly - is a patch "worth it" - is a a patch truly a long term solution?

[moontownMooney]

MANY thanks to all - that was, is my question - and Thanks Andy95W... exactly - is a patch "worth it" - is a a patch truly a long term solution?

IF the sealant you are patching is newer AND well done AND the patching is done carefully by an experienced technician, then yes it can be a long-ish term solution (years anyway).

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[joekinnc]

If it will help others.. O&N price today - 6 bladder - $10,250 - 8 bladder - $14,250 - installed... 

Wetwing, $4250... per wing...

waiting to hear back from Paul at WeepNoMore...

[FastTex]

4 hours ago, joekinnc said:

If it will help others.. O&N price today - 6 bladder - $10,250 - 8 bladder - $14,250 - installed... 

Wetwing, $4250... per wing...

waiting to hear back from Paul at WeepNoMore...

Just installed 6 bladders...quote pretty accurate if you include the overhaul of the senders and gauges...at least that's what I paid...

[RobertGary1]

Unless there is a systemic issue like wide spread cracking or pealing no reason not to patch and get another 5 plus years of leak free flying. Some small amount of weeping is very normal and your service manual goes into detail of when it needs to be addressed. 

Dont turn a tinny thing into a nuclear issue 

-Robert 

[joekinnc]

UPDATE - the tanks were sealed by Don Maxwell in 2016... He has a good reputation here on the forum - he used the CS3204B2KIT...  I wouldn't think they should be leaking in ~30 months...

[carusoam]

DMax patched my tank leaks during a PPI a few years back... for a 90s Mooney...

about eight years without any issues since...

Nobody knows more about finding and sealing leaks than Don...

if your tanks haven’t been resealed since the 60s your are free to make the decision as needed... it is time...

materials have changed since the 60s, but not much since the 90s...

 

Reseal or bladders... take your pick...

Best regards,-a-

 

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, joekinnc said:

UPDATE - the tanks were sealed by Don Maxwell in 2016... He has a good reputation here on the forum - he used the CS3204B2KIT...  I wouldn't think they should be leaking in ~30 months...

As far as I know, he does patches not complete re-seals. Another area which was not patched is probably starting to leak.

[DonMuncy]

I think the answers anyone gets on the subject of fuel tank leaks are likely to be misleading. From what I can discern, everyone's situation is unique. Some leaks can be found and patched and last a long time. Some leak problems remain after several very good attempts to patch. So patching may be a very good answer for some and a very poor answer for others. And as near as I can tell, there is no good way to guess which is which. 

If you have leaks/seeps/etc., read all the posts, then take your plane to Maxwell or one of the reseal guys (Houston Tank, Weep No More, etc.) and get their opinion. Then take your best WAG, and go for it, knowing you may have guessed wrong. Naturally, a total reseal will likely solve the problem, but you may have been able to save money if you try to patch first.

Just to continue my rant; it seems to me that whether your tanks are going to leak (from my totally non data driven assessment) depends on when the plane was built (what sealer they were using at the time), whether the guy doing the sealing had an argument with his wife that morning, or other factors no one knows. My plane and tanks are 36 years old, with probably more than average number of hard landings, and no leaks. 

As I have said before, it would sure be nice if someone took the time and effort to get a big enough sample of plane's histories, plotted against the type of sealers the factory was using at the time, and all the factors some one could come up with, to make a reasonable estimate as to the likelihood of repairs being needed or successful.

[RobertGary1]

On 10/8/2018 at 7:27 AM, Andy95W said:

Patching vs resealing is all about the age of the sealant. 

Less than 5 years- definitely patch. More than 15- definitely reseal. In between?  Tough call. 

15???? I’d say 40+.  I don’t know anyone with a 70’s era Mooney who has needed a full reseal on our field  

-Robert

Edited October 10, 2018 by RobertGary1

[Guest]

Based on a 201 in my shop right now, I wouldn’t  take anything to Houston Tank.  They did a Monroy kit on it, it’s low quality that doesn’t meet any standards, with many leaks for us to try repair.

Clarence

Edited October 11, 2018 by M20Doc

[mike_elliott]

17 hours ago, joekinnc said:

UPDATE - the tanks were sealed by Don Maxwell in 2016... He has a good reputation here on the forum - he used the CS3204B2KIT...  I wouldn't think they should be leaking in ~30 months...

They probably are not leaking where he patched them . He doesn't do full strip and seals, but sends that work to Weep No More. This is an indication that the rest of the sealant is getting brittle, any 1K patching will be temporary until another leak shows up in another place. Question for you is Have they ever been fully stripped and resealed? If not your sealant is 51 years old. Call Mooney and demand warranty service  If they politely tell you to twirl, call Paul Beck at Weep no More and get on his schedule and negotiate the $ with the seller or call O$N and do the same.

[Bob_Belville]

2 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

They probably are not leaking where he patched them . He doesn't do full strip and seals, but sends that work to Weep No More. This is an indication that the rest of the sealant is getting brittle, any 1K patching will be temporary until another leak shows up in another place. Question for you is Have they ever been fully stripped and resealed? If not your sealant is 51 years old. Call Mooney and demand warranty service  If they politely tell you to twirl, call Paul Beck at Weep no More and get on his schedule and negotiate the $ with the seller or call O$N and do the same.

"O$N" is now Griggs: http://www.griggsaircraft.com/fabrication/mooney_bladders

[kris_adams]

7 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

 I don’t know anyone with a 70’s era Mooney who has needed a full reseal on our field 

Not on your field of course by we chased leaks on my '79 for a couple years until I gave up and had them redone...in retrospect I wish I would have never tried to patch and put all the repair money towards a real fix.   That the big problem as @DonMuncy said above...you just don't know if a patch will work for 10 years or until the next flight--Now I'm doing my best to pursue more "permanent" repairs as needed since I'm planning to keep 79H for a long time still.

[ArtVandelay]

I would only attempt to patch maybe once, next leak I would have a reseal.
For reseals I assume most do both tanks? Has anyone tried resealing just the leaky tank?