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Buy-NoBuy - Mooney M20C Engine Corrosion? Engine: Lycoming O-360-AD1, Firewall Forward


Vagus

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Hello everyone,
 

I am looking at an airplane that's located on the coastal region for the last two - three years. Additionally, the airplane spent the earlier 13 years of it's ENGINE*** life in Colorado.

I just wanted to get the opinion of my Mooney friends and experts here if corrosion effecting the CAMS, Lifters, or even Cylinders is highly possible and what % would you say?

I understand to check I would have to do a more intensive pre-buy and I am not sure I want to do that and just not buy the plane.

Below is an excel chart I made for flying time for the plane. Most of the time is spent in CO except* for the last 3 years which was on the coast.

Table below based on engine inspections.

Years Date SMOH TT Flight time that year
1 7/9/2003 0 3209.8  
2  7/24/2004 79 3289 79
3 10/7/2005 113 3322.7 34
4 1/1/2006 113 3322.7 0
5 1/12/2007 154 3364 41
6 1/12/2008 192 3402 38
7 6/12/2009 216 3425.3 23
8 1/1/2010 216 3425.3 0
9 1/1/2011 216 3425.3 0
10 5/10/2012 217 3426.34 1
11 6/5/2013 269 3478.4 52
12 1/1/2014 275 3485.29 7
13 1/1/2015 282 3492.19 7
14 8/18/2016 289 3499.08 7
15 1/20/2017 317 3527 28
16 4/1/2018 370 3579.59 53
  9/27/2018 371 3580 1

Go or no go?

Edited by James0519
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What a pity to put a freshly overhauled engine on a Mooney and then fly it less than 400 hours in 16 years. It would be a guess, but that guess can be educated by knowing what engine are we talking about. Can you share the model of either Lycoming or Continental this engine is?

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Others will be along shortly with better knowledge of that particular engine. But if the C is otherwise well equipped... has an Stec autopilot and WAAS GPS, and is in overall good condition, and priced right... I'd probably be interested but going in knowing that I might be buying an engine at anytime over the next 10 to 1500 hours.  But I would not buy it based on the fact it has a 400 SMOH engine.

And this is only because well equipped C's are getting more and more scarce. If this one needs avionics or any other major improvements... I'd keep looking.

Just my $0.02

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@gsxrpilot I really appreciate your input. The airplane has king radios (dme, ifr gs) , Adsb, no auto pilot, recently sealed tanks in 2018, a mounted Garmin 800 or so, can't do ifr with it, electric gear. No narcos. But from my understanding metal could pop up in the oil filter in as little as 50 to 100 hrs without checking. Just debating if it's even worth it.  (wasting the cash based on the %) 

Also the planes engine (cylinders, Cams) has not been opened up since 2003. (oil has been changed expect those low time years) (maybe the owner changed it) 

 

 

Edited by James0519
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You should always go into buying an airplane with the plan/ability to replace the engine unless it’s still under warranty. With that said, that one looks like a candidate to start making metal and unless it’s priced accordingly, I’d keep looking. An 800 hour engine at 50 hours a year for 16 years is still a risk, but I’d still consider it an 800 hour engine. I bought my first Mooney with 1100 hours and 17 years on the engine and got another 1000 out of it over the next five before it ate the camshaft, but it was consistently flown 50-100 hours/yr. 

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2 minutes ago, James0519 said:

@gsxrpilot I really appreciate your input. The airplane has king radios (dme, ifr gs) , Adsb, no auto pilot, recently sealed tanks in 2018, a mounted Garmin 800 or so, can't do ifr with it, electric gear. No narcos. But from my understanding metal could pop up in the oil filter in as little as 50 to 100 hrs without checking. Just debating if it's even worth it.  (wasting the cash based on the %) 

I'd keep looking. The engine is a huge risk... and it doesn't seem this is the one to take a risk on.

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@Stephen Watkins that's definitely what I was going to do but just getting two off and back on is around 800+. I just don't think it's worth doing and betting there's already corrosion so I would be wasting my money. I guess you can really never know for sure unless it's done. But should I do it... Hmmm? @gsxrpilot thanks for the advice, I'm about 60% buy 40% no go. 

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When I was looking for my plane there was a C, WAAS 430 with STEC 30 for $40k.  I called a day later to put down a deposit and it was already gone.  A pristine C with all the fixin’s will top out around $50k.  More than that and you should be looking at Fs. The name of the game is know all the avionics you want and then be fast. 

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That was 2 years ago. I don’t remember the specifics of that plane. However I ended up in a F with a similar engine. 18 years old, 1600 SNEW, 10 years 400 STOH.  I talked the seller down a bit, probably should have talked them down a bit more. I took a chance on that engine, put 400hrs on it and consider myself lucky. But I’m ready to spend $35k when it starts making metal. 

The difference is that my F has all the mods and avionics.  I don’t have to spend a dime on upgrades if I don’t want to. (Obviously I want to, but don’t need to). 

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12 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Simple. Make an offer as a run-out airplane, contingent on if you can pull a jug and stick a borescope in it

I keep hearing people suggesting pulling a cylinder to inspect the cam during a PPI.  Has anyone actually encounter a seller who would allow the buyer's mechanic to remove a cylinder during a PPI?

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With an M20C... every dollar you spend up front on the purchase will likely save you $4 on the backend, upgrades, maintenance, etc. So the very best value on an M20C will the the one with a $50K asking price. It will be flying regularly, have an Stec autopilot and a WAAS GPS, it probably has the 6 pack panel arrangement, probably ADSB, and an engine monitor. The data logging engine monitor will allow you to have a look at how the owner flies the plane and treats the engine. 

That one isn't for sale today, at least not that I see... but with the cash set aside and ready to spend, be watching all the usual places, and when it appears, grab it.

The alternative is to spend $30K. But it will be on borrowed engine time (25K) no autopilot (15K) no GPS (15K) need ADSB, engine monitor, etc (10K) and eat up (10K) at the first annual. Oh and we haven't even gotten to leaky fuel tanks (8K). Assuming you open your checkbook and spend the money, you have invested just over $100K to own that very nice $50K M20C.

These numbers are the most out of wack with the older vintage Mooneys. As you get into the J's and K's, and especially into the long bodies, the numbers start to make a lot more sense. But vintage Mooneys, especially the M20C, are either bought right or be prepared to spend and never see it again. 

On a final note, we have seen the value of M20C, E's, and F's trending upward. They are desirable airplanes and so as the total fleet continues to shrink, they become more valuable and so spending to bring get one up to date, is slowly becoming more viable.

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1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

The alternative is to spend $30K. But it will be on borrowed engine time (25K) no autopilot (15K) no GPS (15K) need ADSB, engine monitor, etc (10K) and eat up (10K) at the first annual. Oh and we haven't even gotten to leaky fuel tanks (8K). Assuming you open your checkbook and spend the money, you have invested just over $100K to own that very nice $50K M20C.

And Paul has a list of owners who have ended up in this position, and not all of them were C buyers.

Not a list to aspire to make.

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Curious question that might help in this situation.  Is it possible to buy parametric insurance on a/c engines?   For example, buy a policy for $X,000 that if it needs an overhaul in the next 200 h or two years due to corrosion as determined by the rebuild shop, then the policyholder is paid $25k?   I wonder what the premium would be on something like that?  

I just attended a meeting on risk management, and yes, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. ;)

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3 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

I keep hearing people suggesting pulling a cylinder to inspect the cam during a PPI.  Has anyone actually encounter a seller who would allow the buyer's mechanic to remove a cylinder during a PPI?

Yep. For an airplane I bought a few years ago that was the right thing to do and the seller was fine with it.

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