Signature publishes fees for piston airplanes - AOPA

[Mooneymite]

7 hours ago, Antares said:

That's FBO line training 101 right there. The guy showing up in the piston single may be the chief pilot for the corporate flight department. And if he isn't, he might be friends with a few of them. 

.... or his full time job might be flying a jet.

[nels]

In general Signature Really Overcharges for fuel (typically 50% or more than any nearby competitor) and services. I would love to see Signature called out as to location on FLYQ for instance just to know to avoid that airport and it’s pick pocket mentality’s. I just looked up Signature locations in the USA  and I can see there are plenty of them to avoid!  http://www.signatureflight.com/sitemap

[kpaul]

I recently need to fly into Green Bay, WI for a family funeral.  I was arriving on a Sunday.  It just so happened that this was the weekend of the Packer-Viking game there in Green Bay.  I called the FBO, Jet Air Group, which happens to be a Signature Select FBO.  I was waiting to hear about the 100s I would be paying for using their services.

To my surprise, their game day handling fee is $25, which is waived with a 10 gal fuel purchase.  Fuel was around $4.80/gal.  They offer discounted fuel on the weekends or anytime if you are an EAA member.  Tie down fees were $10/night.

Their service was great, the whole staff was super friendly.  They treated my Mooney just like the fleet of jets that had flown in for the game.

When talking to their desk clerk, I found out that Signature Select FBOs are the final say in their pricing and don't necessarily follow the big Signature fleecing of GA pilots.

[Mooneymite]

2 hours ago, nels said:

  and I can see there are plenty of them to avoid!

Unfortunately, very often Signature is the only choice which means either you go to another airport, or pay whatever Signature cares to charge.  Typical today:

FS      $7.61

GUARANTEED

27 miles away:

Municipal airport

SS      $4.19   FS      $4.39

GUARANTEED

Most of the other airports are much closer to Municipal than Signature in fuel price.

In addition to the $7.61/gallon fuel, this particular Signature charges a waivable (7 gallon minimum) $39  single engine ramp fee and a $21 (non-waivable) "infrastructure fee" + overnight parking.

I often wonder if there is a "deal" between cash-hungry airport boards and monopoly FBO's.  The FBO becomes, in essence, a taxing entity for the board.  I have written to several airport boards complaining about egregious fees/fuel costs.  I include comparatives with similar, nearby airports.  In every case, the airport board has extolled the FBO, so I suspect they are in bed together.

Anyone have any "inside" info on this

[gsxrpilot]

Here's a view from the other side... at my local field, the new FBO management and maintenance facility, SWTA, was also awarded the fuel concession in the deal. Unfortunately the current pump, card machine, and tank are owned by the previous vendor. (They also have the fuel concession at a couple of other small fields as well.) So to get into the fuel business, all SWTA has to do is buy and install the equipment. I was even interested in going in on the deal as an investment opportunity. But as it turns out, the equipment and installation would be about $60K for the cheapest, serviceable, we can find. At $1 profit per gallon sold, we'd be priced a bit high for the area. At $0.50 profit per gallon, we might be an attractive fuel location, but not enough to get everyone to go out of their way. The current concessionaire sells about 400 gallons per month. So figure 25 years to pay off the equipment and then start turning a profit. Needless to say, the current guy is going to get to keep the concession for the foreseeable future. It's not easy to make a profit selling fuel.

[FloridaMan]

38 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Here's a view from the other side... at my local field, the new FBO management and maintenance facility, SWTA, was also awarded the fuel concession in the deal. Unfortunately the current pump, card machine, and tank are owned by the previous vendor. (They also have the fuel concession at a couple of other small fields as well.) So to get into the fuel business, all SWTA has to do is buy and install the equipment. I was even interested in going in on the deal as an investment opportunity. But as it turns out, the equipment and installation would be about $60K for the cheapest, serviceable, we can find. At $1 profit per gallon sold, we'd be priced a bit high for the area. At $0.50 profit per gallon, we might be an attractive fuel location, but not enough to get everyone to go out of their way. The current concessionaire sells about 400 gallons per month. So figure 25 years to pay off the equipment and then start turning a profit. Needless to say, the current guy is going to get to keep the concession for the foreseeable future. It's not easy to make a profit selling fuel.

The logic we've used when considering installing a pump is to not figure out how long it would take to pay off the pump, but to figure the over/under on owning it and how much the mortgage would actually cost us. Our reasoning wasn't for profit, but for convenience. I've considered asking the FBO if I could prepay for 500 or 1000 gallons at once and get self-serve prices from the truck. Also, 400 gallons a month sounds awfully low, especially considering the daily maintenance that has to go into a self-serve pump. 

Another aspect that I was unaware of -- I thought Signature and Atlantic were conspiring to fix prices at large airports. As it turns out, at least according to some of the individual FBOs, part of what counts for the big price disparity is that the airport sponsors negotiate a portion of the fuel sales as part of the rent so that in some of those cases where Signature is charging $3 more a gallon that the sponsor may be taking a significant chunk of that markup for themselves, leaving Signature looking like the bad guys. 

[Mooneymite]

31 minutes ago, Antares said:

.... so that in some of those cases where Signature is charging $3 more a gallon that the sponsor may be taking a significant chunk of that markup for themselves, leaving Signature looking like the bad guys. 

Exactly.  However, I suspect that Signature goes into the deal with eyes wide open knowing that they'll have to charge a lot, but also knowing that they can keep a monopoly so that no one will come in to undercut them.

I'm not sure where all the money is going, but as  I pointed out before, Signature turned in some pretty impressive numbers for parent BBA's financials.

[FloridaMan]

2 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Exactly.  However, I suspect that Signature goes into the deal with eyes wide open knowing that they'll have to charge a lot, but also knowing that they can keep a monopoly so that no one will come in to undercut them.

I'm not sure where all the money is going, but as  I pointed out before, Signature turned in some pretty impressive numbers for parent BBA's financials.

All that needs to happen is the FAA needs to enforce the Civil Aviation Act of 1938 with the same level of enthusiasm as the have when they come after pilots. While Signature is engaging in some antitrust practices, I believe the contract under which the airports were delivered to the sponsor, and the money for those airports, should be enough to correct things. 

1) If federal dollars paid for the ramp, you cannot charge for services above actual cost of upkeep. 

2) It is explicitly allowed that aircraft operators can perform their own maintenance AND fueling. It should clearly be spelled out that you can truck in your own fuel and that only the FAA can determine an operation to be unsafe, not local fire or permitting regulations -- just as the EPA cannot ban leaded bullets. We can't have the fox guarding the hen house on this when the local .gov controls regulation and sees airport revenue. 

[mike_elliott]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Here's a view from the other side... at my local field, the new FBO management and maintenance facility, SWTA, was also awarded the fuel concession in the deal. Unfortunately the current pump, card machine, and tank are owned by the previous vendor. (They also have the fuel concession at a couple of other small fields as well.) So to get into the fuel business, all SWTA has to do is buy and install the equipment. I was even interested in going in on the deal as an investment opportunity. But as it turns out, the equipment and installation would be about $60K for the cheapest, serviceable, we can find. At $1 profit per gallon sold, we'd be priced a bit high for the area. At $0.50 profit per gallon, we might be an attractive fuel location, but not enough to get everyone to go out of their way. The current concessionaire sells about 400 gallons per month. So figure 25 years to pay off the equipment and then start turning a profit. Needless to say, the current guy is going to get to keep the concession for the foreseeable future. It's not easy to make a profit selling fuel.

Paul, Ill help JD out and buy some on Wed. Too bad you will miss out on about $30 worth of profit.

[thinwing]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Here's a view from the other side... at my local field, the new FBO management and maintenance facility, SWTA, was also awarded the fuel concession in the deal. Unfortunately the current pump, card machine, and tank are owned by the previous vendor. (They also have the fuel concession at a couple of other small fields as well.) So to get into the fuel business, all SWTA has to do is buy and install the equipment. I was even interested in going in on the deal as an investment opportunity. But as it turns out, the equipment and installation would be about $60K for the cheapest, serviceable, we can find. At $1 profit per gallon sold, we'd be priced a bit high for the area. At $0.50 profit per gallon, we might be an attractive fuel location, but not enough to get everyone to go out of their way. The current concessionaire sells about 400 gallons per month. So figure 25 years to pay off the equipment and then start turning a profit. Needless to say, the current guy is going to get to keep the concession for the foreseeable future. It's not easy to make a profit selling fuel.

400 gal a month?!!...Do you mean 4000?That is only 20 aircraft in 30 days buying an average of 20 gals.

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, thinwing said:

400 gal a month?!!...Do you mean 4000?That is only 20 aircraft in 30 days buying an average of 20 gals.

Yep, 400. It's a little airport and there are other little airports scattered all over the area and some of them have cheaper fuel.

[Wayne Cease]

400 gal a month?!!...Do you mean 4000?That is only 20 aircraft in 30 days buying an average of 20 gals.

I was thinking the same. Heck, I sometimes buy 100+ gallons at one time in the Baron.

Yep, 400. It's a little airport and there are other little airports scattered all over the area and some of them have cheaper fuel.

Downturns in the fuel price must just kill them. I was talking with an FBO manager years ago, about their new 24 hr self-serve. He said they had to sell a bunch of 100LL at a loss to get a load of cheaper fuel to be competitive on price.

Low sales volume left them with hundreds of gallons of fuel they paid more for than the local retail prices when the price of oil dropped significantly.

[FloridaMan]

On 10/7/2018 at 9:03 AM, Wayne Cease said:

I was thinking the same. Heck, I sometimes buy 100+ gallons at one time in the Baron.



Downturns in the fuel price must just kill them. I was talking with an FBO manager years ago, about their new 24 hr self-serve. He said they had to sell a bunch of 100LL at a loss to get a load of cheaper fuel to be competitive on price.

Low sales volume left them with hundreds of gallons of fuel they paid more for than the local retail prices when the price of oil dropped significantly.
 

That's all really weird. My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that 100LL is refined once a year. I could see oil fluctuations affecting delivery cost, and possibly some things with pricing to prevent demand from increasing for use in things other than airplanes, but the daily fluctuation tied to the price of oil seems a bit weird to me as I don't see demand of the end product -- avgas -- changing all that much. 

[flyboy0681]

1 minute ago, Antares said:

That's all really weird. My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that 100LL is refined once a year. I could see oil fluctuations affecting delivery cost, and possibly some things with pricing to prevent demand from increasing for use in things other than airplanes, but the daily fluctuation tied to the price of oil seems a bit weird to me as I don't see demand of the end product -- avgas -- changing all that much. 

That's one of the greater mysteries of life.

A few years ago I was listening to the Diane Rehm show and her guests were oil industry analysts. A caller asked the panel why if the local gas station tanks are filled and paid for on Monday do the prices change on Tuesday when nothing had changed. None of the guests wanted to touch that question.

 

 

[jaylw314]

7 minutes ago, Antares said:

That's all really weird. My understanding, and I may be wrong, is that 100LL is refined once a year. I could see oil fluctuations affecting delivery cost, and possibly some things with pricing to prevent demand from increasing for use in things other than airplanes, but the daily fluctuation tied to the price of oil seems a bit weird to me as I don't see demand of the end product -- avgas -- changing all that much. 

The price of gas (as does most commodities) does not vary just according to actual supply and demand.  It also varies according to PERCEIVED supply and demand, which means the mentality of the people selling and buying it affects the cost.

[Kmac]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 11:49 AM, Marauder said:

I used to go to KMQS’s restaurant a fair amount until Signature took it over. They initially were charging a $10 landing fee just to go to the restaurant. The backlash eventually saw them eliminate it but not before the restaurant shutdown, presumably because of the non-ending rumors of the landing fee.

I do a fair amount of approach practice there. One afternoon the guy running the Signature desk got on the frequency (recognized his voice) and asked for my full N number. Was he trying to charge me for using the airspace?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Yes, I used to like to go to The Flying Machine Café there also.  Until Signature took over it was fun to just walk in and go to the restaurant.  After they took over you had to stop at the front desk and fill out paperwork with your N number and full name to get to the restaurant.  You also had to let them know that you were going to the restaurant to get out of the landing fee...What a shame...

[Marauder]

18 minutes ago, Kmac said:

Yes, I used to like to go to The Flying Machine Café there also.  Until Signature took over it was fun to just walk in and go to the restaurant.  After they took over you had to stop at the front desk and fill out paperwork with your N number and full name to get to the restaurant.  You also had to let them know that you were going to the restaurant to get out of the landing fee...What a shame...

I called it quits when they asked me to sign a liability release document if they needed to move my plane.

[FloridaMan]

38 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I called it quits when they asked me to sign a liability release document if they needed to move my plane.

That's why we have insurance -- to fight over who pays on our behalf. Waivers used to piss me off, but in many cases they don't apply when it comes to gross negligence. 

[jaylw314]

28 minutes ago, Antares said:

That's why we have insurance -- to fight over who pays on our behalf. Waivers used to piss me off, but in many cases they don't apply when it comes to gross negligence. 

No a lawyer, but my understanding is that waivers signed by an individual client have very little influence on any legal proceedings--the courts frown upon businesses trying to get consumers to sign away their rights (in this case, the right to sue).

[1964-M20E]

I know we always like to beat on Signature.  They do tend to have higher fuel prices and ramp fees etc.

However, Signature in Baton Rouge (KBTR) has twice treated me well.  I dropped off a passenger once a couple of years ago and again yesterday.  I dd not buy any fuel and all the pax did was walk though.   I went inside to make sure everything was OK no ramp fees etc.  Both times I was greeted with you are good no problem.

So some Signature places do treat people well.

 

 

[thomas1142]

Ok,  I maybe the ultimate CB, and do understand that airports require upkeep and that costs money. But...what I don’t understand is why there is any charge if all I want to do is park my airplane for a couple of hours/day on an airfield that has received federal dollars, state/local tax dollars for upkeep. I don’t want any service, I’ll buy fuel if need be (fuel tax), and don’t even want to use the facilities, just a gate to get of the ramp to a waiting car. 

I feel there should be a limited number of spots available for this purpose. How, or why is there a charge for dropping of a passenger that just walks through the FBO because that is the only way off the ramp (which is how the FBO ensured it would be)

ok let me have it, I got thick skin.

[flyboy0681]

2 minutes ago, thomas1142 said:

ok let me have it, I got thick skin.

You won't get any arguments from me. I've always felt it was a money grab from Atlantic and Signature. The feds recently found nothing wrong with fees charged in Key West and I suspect that will be their response when they move on and look at others.

[DualRatedFlyer]

On 10/9/2018 at 12:52 PM, Marauder said:

I called it quits when they asked me to sign a liability release document if they needed to move my plane.

Had a battle with Signature at Smith Reynolds in NC.  Had to divert do to weather on an overnight.  Was like a $50 overnight charge + XX security fee + something else fee for a small delta airport.  Got a few bucks waived with self serve fuel. 

Long story short, when trying to pay my bill and leave the next day, the lady wanted my home address, phone number, email, work number, aircraft home base location, and im not even exaggerating.

I told her I would compromise and give her my credit card number to pay my fuel and overnight fee.  She acted like I was trying to skip a background check on a firearms purchase.  She said they system wouldn't even let her ring it up without all that info.  Told her that seems like a system problem.  Glanced around and saw a signature business card on the counter and handed it to her, told her to use the information on it as a placeholder to ring up my bill.  She wasnt happy that I didnt want all my info in the Signature Borg Mainframe.  Was one of my stranger Signature experiences - but I still try to avoid that place like the plague. 

[steingar]

I've gotten raped up the six every time I've been in one of those places.  Only once did I feel it justified, when I left my aircraft there overnight.  Otherwise it just walked through their building to wait for my ride, back couple hours later.  I avoid them like the plague.  Aviation is expensive enough without those assholes.

[FloridaMan]

One more thing, and it's something that I hate. I have what I consider to be a somewhat well-tempered sense of justice. I get really pissed off at the injustices that we deal with in life, but as pissed as I am with FBO pricing, or having to hold for a long time on the phone with a call center, only to speak to someone who barely speaks English, et cetera, I don't shoot the messenger. The person working the front desk just works there and has about as little to do with the fucking that we're getting as the person answering the phone when you call customer service. Sometimes it's not even the FBO, it's the airport sponsor forcing the FBO through some corrupt channel to pay too much for fuel and those costs get passed on to us. And worse, they often are the buffer for the negatively that goes along with what their employers are doing in setting prices. I go out of my way to express in the kindest of manner how much I appreciate the individual's help and in the same tone of voice, I voice my complaint over the high fees and explicitly tell them that I know they have nothing to do with it personally. Oftentimes it results in a fuel discount or fees getting waived even though I never ask for that. 

Signature is the only operation on the field at KGSO. They have excellent service and relatively inexpensive self-serve fuel. A couple weeks ago I went to a crowded bar in Tampa with my girlfriend. We're navigating through the crowd and this guy is looking at her and sortof blocking our path. I guide her to the right of him as I'm following her from behind. The next thing you know, as we're passing him, his hand slides up and grabs my ass. I don't think he even realized that it wasn't her. I felt violated; the same way that I feel when I fly out of Asheville.