Flying a J at 2,900 lbs

[marcusku]

I have a 87' 205 with the weight increase to 2,900 lbs.  Planning a trip where I'll be close to or at 2,900.  How does a J perform at that weight?  Any considerations?  Of course I'll need to make sure my CG is acceptable.  The manual says approach speeds should be 80 knots instead of 71.  According to the book the stall speed only changes by 2 knots so this seemed like a big jump to me.  Thanks in advance!

[Piloto]

Make sure the tires are fully inflated for quicker takeoff and easier taxing. Climb above 10K becomes anemic, be patient.

José

[Bartman]

I have flown my J at max gross of 2,740 more times than I can count. Although she takes a little more runway and initial climb rate is a little less, I can't really tell all that much difference unless climbing higher like @Piloto wrote above. In my experience I would have to try really hard to get her out of CG. If mine had the 2,900 lb gross weight the only thing that would make me think twice about take off would be runway length/conditions and density altitude. If taking off heavy I raise the gear as soon as safe and practical, but leave takeoff flaps until pattern altitude and then retract after gaining some speed.  Traveling with 4 adults and 1.5 - 2 hour legs I have landed many times at 2,600 lbs which is within 120-140 lbs of gross weight and it's a non event, but like you stated use the correct approach speed and I apply flaps before beginning turns in the pattern.  

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, marcusku said:

I have a 87' 205 with the weight increase to 2,900 lbs.  Planning a trip where I'll be close to or at 2,900.  How does a J perform at that weight?  Any considerations?  Of course I'll need to make sure my CG is acceptable.  The manual says approach speeds should be 80 knots instead of 71.  According to the book the stall speed only changes by 2 knots so this seemed like a big jump to me.  Thanks in advance!

I would use 1.3Vso on final. Do everything else as you normally would.

[smccray]

I have flown my old 205 at 2900 lbs- she flies about the same as she does at 2600 lbs. She’s a little slower to climb, and a little slower at cruise, but not a lot.

I stressed about flying at heavy weights, but then I did it... no big deal.  Wait for the plane to be ready to fly on takeoff.  Don’t force the plane onto the runway when landing.  Don’t yank and bank in the pattern.  Have to respect the change in the airplane at the heavy weights, but it’s very manageable  

Not a bad idea to go up with an instructor heavy.  I’m just a private pilot.

[bradp]

Also if flying MGW and you have concerns about density altitude or temperature- let the plane tell you when she is read you to fly.  Stay in ground effect until accelerating to your climb out speed.  You’ll know in ground effect whether she’ll feel good or not.  You’ll know from your calculations that she will fly.    If something doesn’t feel right or your actual performance is not meeting expectations then call off early, land, re evaluate conservatively   

 Just get a feel for how she behaves loaded on a long runway without close in obstructions before easing her to the edge of the performance envelope.   Leave room for pilot / aircraft error and you will be safe.   

[Oldguy]

Look at your CG on your normal flights and the CG on your MGTOW flight. If it has shifted aft, even a little, consider dropping the trim just a bit lower prior to your normal takeoff position - still within the gauge marks for takeoff, but in recognition a slight more aft CG will have an effect on attitude on initial climb.

Hearing the stall horn chirp on landings is fine - takeoff, not so much.

[Bolter]

When flying at gross (2740 for my J) I tend to be more aft CG than typical.   All within POH limits, but the difference in gross and normal missions is usually things loaded in the rear seats and the cargo area.  More than the impact of the added weight, I feel this CG difference in landing and in the flare.  Give respect to the others' comments on climb and take-off, this is in addition to that at the end of the flight.  

[jaylw314]

Remember, gross weight is a structural limit, not a performance limit.  If the structure would take it, performance would gradually decrease with increasing weight.  The difference between 2740 and 2900 lbs is about 5%, so performance-wise the difference is probably noticeable but not dramatic, and probably on-par with the difference between 2740 and 2600 lbs.

I don't know if the 205's included numbers in its own POH, or if it just has the normal 201 manual with an AFMS?

[smccray]

5 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Remember, gross weight is a structural limit, not a performance limit.  If the structure would take it, performance would gradually decrease with increasing weight.  The difference between 2740 and 2900 lbs is about 5%, so performance-wise the difference is probably noticeable but not dramatic, and probably on-par with the difference between 2740 and 2600 lbs.

I don't know if the 205's included numbers in its own POH, or if it just has the normal 201 manual with an AFMS?

My ‘87 came with the 2740 gross weight with the appropriate POH numbers for gross weight. The 2900 lb gross weight was a paper STC.  I can’t say for certain but I believe all of the 205s were delivered with a 2740 gross weight. 

[jaylw314]

17 minutes ago, smccray said:

My ‘87 came with the 2740 gross weight with the appropriate POH numbers for gross weight. The 2900 lb gross weight was a paper STC.  I can’t say for certain but I believe all of the 205s were delivered with a 2740 gross weight. 

Did the STC come with an AFMS?

[Oldguy]

25 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Did the STC come with an AFMS?

The 2,900 gross weight increase process was detailed in a Mooney Special Letter 92-1 for S/Ns 24-1686 thru 24-3200 and 24-3202 thru 24-3217. There was a retrofit kit purchased from Mooney, SBs listed which must be applied, an AFMS to be included (different ones, based on serial number) into the POH and a few other tasks to be accomplished to get the gross weight increase.

I heard about this after I purchased my J, and I did quite a bit of research only to find I was about 200 serial numbers too early.

[jaylw314]

1 minute ago, Oldguy said:

The 2,900 gross weight increase process was detailed in a Mooney Special Letter 92-1 for S/Ns 24-1686 thru 24-3200 and 24-3202 thru 24-3217. There was a retrofit kit purchased from Mooney, SBs listed which must be applied, an AFMS to be included (different ones, based on serial number) into the POH and a few other tasks to be accomplished to get the gross weight increase.

I heard about this after I purchased my J, and I did quite a bit of research only to find I was about 200 serial numbers too early.

Thanks, that's interesting info.  Of course, I'm about 120 numbers too early

[Oldguy]

Just now, jaylw314 said:

Thanks, that's interesting info.  Of course, I'm about 120 numbers too early

I share your pain....

[DonMuncy]

I would never recommend that anyone violate regulations by taking off in excess of the legal maximum, but when you contemplate that permits are often given for overseas flights at numbers up to 50% over gross, I do not get very excited about flying at gross. Just know that you are doing it and be careful of runway lengths. Remember that if you have a problem you may have to return to the runway you just took off from. 

[gsxrpilot]

My 252 has spent a lot of it's life at MGW. It's never been an issue.

[Yetti]

Find a runway with no trees at the end, don't take off during the heat of the day.   Fly it off the runway, don't pop it off.

[Niko182]

At 4000ft runway at 927ft elevation theres really nothing to worry about. it'll feel a bit sluggish compared to what you're used to, but its still a mooney. I'd rotate about 5 knots faster than what you're used to. the rest is pretty identical. expect a lower climb rate.

[Parker_Woodruff]

The M20J is fine at 2900 lbs, but it's a bit doggy at that weight when 104 degrees outside and taking off from Dallas.

[FloridaMan]

On 10/2/2018 at 8:37 AM, marcusku said:

I have a 87' 205 with the weight increase to 2,900 lbs.  Planning a trip where I'll be close to or at 2,900.  How does a J perform at that weight?  Any considerations?  Of course I'll need to make sure my CG is acceptable.  The manual says approach speeds should be 80 knots instead of 71.  According to the book the stall speed only changes by 2 knots so this seemed like a big jump to me.  Thanks in advance!

80kts sounds a tad high. Will you be landing at 2,900lbs? I'd say I've landed at or above 2,900lbs in the rocket which, as far as I know, is about the same airframe except for likely being at the forward side of the CG. I was trained to cross the fence at 80kts. Vso * 1.3 puts me in the mid 70s. At 80, I'd float over 1000 ft and 75kts would get me in nicely. I will say that below around 85kts and heavy, airspeed will deteriorate very quickly and you have to kick it with more power than you're used to or you'll get behind the airplane. 

In the M20F, landing close to gross weight of 2740 (it was common for me to stop with passengers 5 minutes from home and top off), I'd still cross the fence at 80mph (70kts).

As for where you said "approach speeds should be 80 instead of 71," does it say that specifically? Or does it say "approach speed of 80kts". The reason I ask is it sounds like there could be confusion with your final approach speed vs the speed you transition to on short final just before the flare. 

[jaylw314]

16 minutes ago, Antares said:

80kts sounds a tad high. Will you be landing at 2,900lbs? I'd say I've landed at or above 2,900lbs in the rocket which, as far as I know, is about the same airframe except for likely being at the forward side of the CG. I was trained to cross the fence at 80kts. Vso * 1.3 puts me in the mid 70s. At 80, I'd float over 1000 ft and 75kts would get me in nicely. I will say that below around 85kts and heavy, airspeed will deteriorate very quickly and you have to kick it with more power than you're used to or you'll get behind the airplane. 

In the M20F, landing close to gross weight of 2740 (it was common for me to stop with passengers 5 minutes from home and top off), I'd still cross the fence at 80mph (70kts).

As for where you said "approach speeds should be 80 instead of 71," does it say that specifically? Or does it say "approach speed of 80kts". The reason I ask is it sounds like there could be confusion with your final approach speed vs the speed you transition to on short final just before the flare. 

The J POH lists in its performance charts approach speeds of 71 KIAS at 2740 lbs, and 69 KIAS at 2500 lbs.  I think it would be within the ballpark to assume 73 KIAS at 2900 lbs?

[smccray]

On 10/2/2018 at 3:25 PM, Oldguy said:

The 2,900 gross weight increase process was detailed in a Mooney Special Letter 92-1 for S/Ns 24-1686 thru 24-3200 and 24-3202 thru 24-3217. There was a retrofit kit purchased from Mooney, SBs listed which must be applied, an AFMS to be included (different ones, based on serial number) into the POH and a few other tasks to be accomplished to get the gross weight increase.

I heard about this after I purchased my J, and I did quite a bit of research only to find I was about 200 serial numbers too early.

That’s a better answer than I could have give.  I knew the gross weight increase was available when I bought the plane- I paid DMAX and got it done.  When looking at flight performance I think I had a digital copy of an early MSE that I used for performance data.

I tended to have three different profiles- and keep in mind none of these were at short fields. I’m based at a busy field so I typically kept speed up as long as possible slowing down at the last second. If I was on the higher end of weight I was looking for 70-75 on short final.  If I was lighter I was looking for 65-70- 70 kias was my default and I made adjustments based on how the wing flew.  If I encountered really gusty crosswinds, I would land with intermediate flaps (the 205 has an intermediate flap setting), 80 kias on short final, and run the plane onto the runway.  Never force a Mooney to land- and if you bounce, go around and try again.  I’m not advocating any technique, nor would I suggest that my approach (no pun intended...okay maybe a little) is a good one, but it worked for me.

My plane loading was very consistent (solo plus the same bags) generally landing with 20-50 gallons of fuel.  As a result I didn’t see a lot of variation in aircraft performance. 

[marcusku]

Appreciate all the responses!  The flight went well and the airplane performed better than I would have expected.  I did have a little too much elevator trim in during take off as the stall warning chirped when the mains left the ground.  I immediately relaxed the yoke and kept it in ground affect until I picked up more speed.  With the CG more aft than what I'm used to, it takes less trim and back pressure to take off.  For landing I crossed the threshold at about 75 knots instead of 70 and that seemed about right.

[FloridaMan]

Heavy and with the CG more rearward, you may feel like it wants to have a little pitch oscillation on takeoff. My stall warning routinely chirps in the Rocket on takeoff as I tend to use a lot of backpressure to keep the weight off the nose and then roll forward to build speed in ground effect. If you pay attention, you'll note that the plane will drift left if you're not quick on the right rudder with the P-factor; I guess that's one of the disadvantages of a tethered nosewheel in that you can't have the rudder already applied on the takeoff roll, though I'm not sure how you could have a free castering retractable wheel. Even the P51s tailwheel was tethere; I'm guessing for the same reason. 

[marcusku]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:17 PM, Antares said:

80kts sounds a tad high. Will you be landing at 2,900lbs? I'd say I've landed at or above 2,900lbs in the rocket which, as far as I know, is about the same airframe except for likely being at the forward side of the CG. I was trained to cross the fence at 80kts. Vso * 1.3 puts me in the mid 70s. At 80, I'd float over 1000 ft and 75kts would get me in nicely. I will say that below around 85kts and heavy, airspeed will deteriorate very quickly and you have to kick it with more power than you're used to or you'll get behind the airplane. 

In the M20F, landing close to gross weight of 2740 (it was common for me to stop with passengers 5 minutes from home and top off), I'd still cross the fence at 80mph (70kts).

As for where you said "approach speeds should be 80 instead of 71," does it say that specifically? Or does it say "approach speed of 80kts". The reason I ask is it sounds like there could be confusion with your final approach speed vs the speed you transition to on short final just before the flare. 

 

When I landed I should've been around 2760 lbs.

The GW increase to 2,900 included revised pages of the POH so I have both the original and modified.  I was looking in the "normal procedures" section under "landing", the original says 71 and revised 80.  For some reason it also changes the gear operating speeds.  They go back down to 132 from 140 and also once down says the max speed stays at 132 instead of 160.  Not sure why those numbers would change.